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help with selmer trumpet



 
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alexbancas
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: help with selmer trumpet Reply with quote

does anyone know which model this is, if it is good it could be a steal for 150 dollars, thanks a lot for the help

https://imgur.com/a/m3ehc7z
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing looks right on it. I just looked at the history of Selmer on trumpet-history as well as searched the web extensively. None of the markings look correct. The valves and wrap don't look right. Dating all the way back to 1928 when he bought the sax factory and designed his first trumpet.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bell reads "???SEL AMERICAN FROM HA SELMER NEW YORK"
This is not a Selmer trumpet. It is probably a European-made stencil horn, and was engraved for sale by the H&A Selmer Store in New York circa late teens to early 20s (maybe it was there when Vincent Bach was in the back room turning his first mouthpieces)
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure it is not a French made Selmer. Looks like someones stencil trumpet. Still - it's very unusual - check out the bell - 1st slide arrangement. Looks like it might tune at the bell or at least the bell and 1st slide are reversed.

If money is tight - pass this by. If you are into collecting - this is unusual. Probably from the early 1900's.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, first, it is a cornet. Us cornet collectors call it an "Oops Loop" because of the loop in the bell tail by the 1st valve slide. H&A Selmer was an American company loosely related to the Paris Henri Selmer Company that supplied brass instrument stenciled from other makers to the American market after WWII. While they had some good players (usually stenciled Blessing Artists) some were not so great. During the late 40's and early 50's, George Bundy was the President of H&A Selmer's US operations.

So, given the little we can see. Put up your wallet and go back to reading Trumpet Herald!🤓
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets clean up the historical misconceptions:

In 1885, 3rd-generation clarinetist Henri Selmer (1858-1940) opened a small woodwind shop in Paris.
In 1898, Hermann Schoenaers of the Raux-Millereau company began designing trumpets.
In 1905, Henri Selmer sent his younger brother Alex to New York to open an American operation similar to the Paris store. At this time, all brass sold in both location was made by others.
Around 1910, H&A Selmer was selling Courtois and Holton instruments in addition to a variety of cheaper stencils. These were typically engraved with the store name in addition to the maker’s markings.
In late 1918, new H&A store manager George Bundy let Vincent Bach set up his $300 lathe in the back room and start making mouthpieces. This kindness was Bach’s reason for selling to Selmer even though their bid was not the highest in 1961.
In 1927, the H&A Selmer Stores chain was sold to George Bundy. This included stores around the US, plus several major European cities as well.
In 1931, the Francois Millereau firm (formerly Raux-Millereau) failed and was purchased by Henri Selmer. Interestingly, among the assets were designs for balanced model trumpets.
In 1932 Henri Selmer began trumpet and cornet manufacture.
In 1940, Henri Selmer disappeared in occupied France. The company was forced to label its instruments as “from the workshop of Adolph Sax” for a time (Selmer had acquired the assets of Sax out of bankruptcy previously)
In 1941 George Bundy launched the Bundy and Signet brands as stencil brands of H&A Selmer.
In 1945 Henri Selmer Paris was established as successor to the original Henri Selmer company, which had essentially dissolved during the war.
In 1953, Keith Ecker redesigned the Selmer Paris trumpet line, resulting in the “k-modified” horns.
In 1961, Selmer (formerly H&A Selmer) bought Vincent Bach Corporation
Around 1987, Selmer replaced the Bundy name with Bach on student line horns
In the 1990s, the Selmer Paris firm decided to cease trumpet manufacture
In 2003, Steinway merged Selmer and Conn into Conn-Selmer.
In 2010, the Bundy name was sold to Guitar Center and became once again a stencil brand.
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alexbancas
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot, i didin't expect a history class, very interesting
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a pretty solid history bit from Ron. However, Selmer Paris ceased making trumpets in 2011. I'm not sure when the decision was made, but probably later than the 1990's.

As far as Selmer Paris and Selmer USA.

Selmer Paris - company started by Selmer brothers to make and sell their clarinets. They actually make the French (good) instruments - like the clarinets, saxophones and trumpets.

H&A Selmer (as in Henri and Alexandre) -> Selmer USA -> Conn-Selmer - company / store started by Alexandre in New York to sell their clarinets in America. Sold to Bundy and through numerous acquisitions and mergers are part of the big American music conglomerate Conn-Selmer-Steinway along with most formerly independent American "brands" of yesteryear. Are still the distributor for the Paris instruments, but have no actual ownership of them.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
That's a pretty solid history bit from Ron. However, Selmer Paris ceased making trumpets in 2011. I'm not sure when the decision was made, but probably later than the 1990's.

As far as Selmer Paris and Selmer USA.

Selmer Paris - company started by Selmer brothers to make and sell their clarinets. They actually make the French (good) instruments - like the clarinets, saxophones and trumpets.

H&A Selmer (as in Henri and Alexandre) -> Selmer USA -> Conn-Selmer - company / store started by Alexandre in New York to sell their clarinets in America. Sold to Bundy and through numerous acquisitions and mergers are part of the big American music conglomerate Conn-Selmer-Steinway along with most formerly independent American "brands" of yesteryear. Are still the distributor for the Paris instruments, but have no actual ownership of them.


I stand corrected on the end of Selmer trumpets. The 700 series came out by the 80s, and I couldn't find any older than the 90s, but 2011 works for me.

I don't believe Alex was part of the original shop in Paris - too young. But he obviously was brought into the business by his brother.

The interesting part is George Bundy, who basically built what became Conn-Selmer. He was an American serviceman in his 20s in Europe at the end of the war who so impressed the Selmer brothers, and Henri (the boss) in particular, with his skills in whatever role he served in the military presence we had in France, that they hired him to run the H&A stores.

Even more interesting is that he was able to buy such a sizeable company less than 10 years later. I presume he borrowed the money, and can only assume that his loan contract was one of so many bought at auction from failed banks for pennies on the dollar and renegotiated by the new note holder at a drastically reduced amount during the Depression. Bundy went from literally a vet in need of a job, to owning the beginning of a musical mega-corp.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I stand corrected on the end of Selmer trumpets. The 700 series came out by the 80s, and I couldn't find any older than the 90s, but 2011 works for me.

I don't know when they came out specifically, but the Chorus (80J), the Concept, and the Sigma are all more recent models. I should have bought a Chorus when they were closing out, I like that horn. The Sigma is a good one as well, almost pulled the trigger on one of those, despite only a really short time on one.

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I don't believe Alex was part of the original shop in Paris - too young. But he obviously was brought into the business by his brother.

The interesting part is George Bundy, who basically built what became Conn-Selmer. He was an American serviceman in his 20s in Europe at the end of the war who so impressed the Selmer brothers, and Henri (the boss) in particular, with his skills in whatever role he served in the military presence we had in France, that they hired him to run the H&A stores.

Even more interesting is that he was able to buy such a sizeable company less than 10 years later. I presume he borrowed the money, and can only assume that his loan contract was one of so many bought at auction from failed banks for pennies on the dollar and renegotiated by the new note holder at a drastically reduced amount during the Depression. Bundy went from literally a vet in need of a job, to owning the beginning of a musical mega-corp.

That's very interesting!

I was trying to poke around and see what happened to Henri during the war, but wasn't able to come up with much in a quick google.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - I finally found it. Looks like the same cornet that Wurlitzer was importing from Czechoslovakia. York was marketing something similar. The very similar "Special" on the other hand was supposed to be made in the USA (Reverb).

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D%22Cornet%22+and+maker%3D%22Wurlitzer%22




Last edited by Andy Cooper on Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
I was trying to poke around and see what happened to Henri during the war, but wasn't able to come up with much in a quick google.


There just doesn't seem to be any information - only guesses.

Obviously, being a fairly wealthy 82 year old civilian in a war zone as desperate people try to flee is not a good situation. The German forces, and particularly the police and special units charged with identifying economically influential civilians among the conquered (OK, identifying sources of cash), and locating the cultural elite (either to loot art work or to prevent those troublesome artists from inspiring resistance with their work), all kept impeccable records. Henri Selmer is not in them. What seems likely is that he either attempted to take his money and escape to England, falling victim to a desperate Frenchman seeing opportunity in an old man with money along the way, or was the victim of another looking to take what they could from him to try to buy passage out as he sat at home in a lawless city. While the recordkeeping for those detained was perfect, the collateral casualties that were simply found dead in the street were buried without documentation.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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