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Why is pocket trumpet easier to play?



 
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:56 am    Post subject: Why is pocket trumpet easier to play? Reply with quote

A few months ago, I bought an affordable pocket trumpet from acb. The bell size is larger than the pocket trumpet. It's enough to be equipped with a normal trumpet.

And I became convinced that this pocket trumpet is easier to play than the 8310z and Getzen custom trumpet that were used before. It's a really significant difference. What I mean by easy means easy to make high notes. What's the reason?

Is it a matter of resistance? Do you think pocket trumpet has higher resistance than normal trumpet? If I don't solve this problem, I may have to play with pocket trumpet all my life. Like Don Cherry. Don Cherry is cool, but I want to play the regular trumpet. If I know the cause, I'm willing to dispose of all the instruments I have and buy a new trumpet.

Which option trumpet will solve my problem? Am I the only one who has this problem? What in the world does pocket trumpet make an easy high note?

The model name of the pocket trumpet is acb double pocket trumpet. The mouthpiece is monette B6S1.

Please help me . If you can't find the answer, you may have to bring a pocket trumpet to your friend's upcoming wedding.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Why is pocket trumpet easier to play? Reply with quote

metaljwe wrote:


Is it a matter of resistance? Do you think pocket trumpet has higher resistance than normal trumpet? I


Probably, yes.

Some substantial resistance can be helpful in high register playing.

The Z horn and probably the Getzen Custom (depends on the bell and the bore) are quite free blowing.
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, my first response is I don't think pocket trumpet is easier to play. That's my experience. I've had a pocket trumpet for 25 years that I sometimes use on vacation. It's just easier to pack for travel and helps keep the horn on my face.
The ACB horns are well planned by Trent to offer a good horn at a good price.

I own a lot of trumpets. I suppose you could say that I'm as much a collector as I am a player. If I buy something that I don't like, I usually get rid of it pretty quickly so they stuff that I keep is usually something that suits me for some purpose.

"Easy to play" is not at the top of my list for trumpet selection. I think sound quality and the ability to create the sound colors that I'm interested in are the top requirements.

But, you've probably found your answer regarding the resistance. There's something about the resistance of your ACB that suits you well. It could be more or less or felt in a different place, but something that suits you. For example, many people swear by the older Benge trumpets. Personally, I've never met a Benge that I liked and I'm pretty sure that it is because I don't like the feel of the resistance. Other people love Benge's.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:03 am    Post subject: Re: Why is pocket trumpet easier to play? Reply with quote

delano wrote:
metaljwe wrote:


Is it a matter of resistance? Do you think pocket trumpet has higher resistance than normal trumpet? I


Probably, yes.

Some substantial resistance can be helpful in high register playing.

The Z horn and probably the Getzen Custom (depends on the bell and the bore) are quite free blowing.




Thank you for your answer. I'm ashamed, but I don't know the difference in resistance while playing. I think the pocket trumpet has a higher resistance.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patdublc wrote:
Interesting, my first response is I don't think pocket trumpet is easier to play. That's my experience. I've had a pocket trumpet for 25 years that I sometimes use on vacation. It's just easier to pack for travel and helps keep the horn on my face.
The ACB horns are well planned by Trent to offer a good horn at a good price.

I own a lot of trumpets. I suppose you could say that I'm as much a collector as I am a player. If I buy something that I don't like, I usually get rid of it pretty quickly so they stuff that I keep is usually something that suits me for some purpose.

"Easy to play" is not at the top of my list for trumpet selection. I think sound quality and the ability to create the sound colors that I'm interested in are the top requirements.

But, you've probably found your answer regarding the resistance. There's something about the resistance of your ACB that suits you well. It could be more or less or felt in a different place, but something that suits you. For example, many people swear by the older Benge trumpets. Personally, I've never met a Benge that I liked and I'm pretty sure that it is because I don't like the feel of the resistance. Other people love Benge's.





Thank you for your good answer. I'll have to play more to find the answer. If I have a chance, I want to play a lot of trumpet.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thank you for your answer. I'm ashamed, but I don't know the difference in resistance while playing. I think the pocket trumpet has a higher resistance.


Its not so much "resistance", but acoustics. All trumpets have acoustic impedance. Some have more resonance on the higher partials that others. The base design can affect the acoustics. The wrap would affect the acoustics but so does a myriad of other design features.

The position of the bell relative to your ears may also influence your perception of "ease".
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for your answer. I'm ashamed, but I don't know the difference in resistance while playing. I think the pocket trumpet has a higher resistance.


Its not so much "resistance", but acoustics. All trumpets have acoustic impedance. Some have more resonance on the higher partials that others. The base design can affect the acoustics. The wrap would affect the acoustics but so does a myriad of other design features.

The position of the bell relative to your ears may also influence your perception of "ease".




It's really difficult. It's hard to find the answer. I think the answer will come out after playing a lot of horn.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to play a pocket trumpet that I thought played better or easier than any of my full sized trumpets or cornets.

I'll admit that I have not played the ACB pocket trumpet. He does offer solid instruments, indeed.

However, it probably comes down to personal preference in terms of how instruments play. The characteristics that make the pocket play easier for you might be the same characteristics that make me think the opposite.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As noted above, something in ACB pocket suits you. It may be possible to find a similar or better set of features in a different horn. Until then, as long as you are satisfied, use this horn!
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d agree with etc-etc. play the pocket, practice, practice, practice, try trumpets from your friends and colleagues and find out what it is that you like. Maybe it’s just that the sound is „closer to you“ because the horn is so short?

Once you have played for a while take a trip to a respected dealer, play all the horns at the shop, talk to the staff, describe what you observe, and they should be able to help you. Maybe you’ll walk out with a good cornet rather than a trumpet?
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
I have yet to play a pocket trumpet that I thought played better or easier than any of my full sized trumpets or cornets.

I'll admit that I have not played the ACB pocket trumpet. He does offer solid instruments, indeed.

However, it probably comes down to personal preference in terms of how instruments play. The characteristics that make the pocket play easier for you might be the same characteristics that make me think the opposite.





I think we need more play to find the answer.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
As noted above, something in ACB pocket suits you. It may be possible to find a similar or better set of features in a different horn. Until then, as long as you are satisfied, use this horn!




Yes, it will take a long time to find a new trumpet. I think I need to play the pocket trumpet longer.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
I’d agree with etc-etc. play the pocket, practice, practice, practice, try trumpets from your friends and colleagues and find out what it is that you like. Maybe it’s just that the sound is „closer to you“ because the horn is so short?

Once you have played for a while take a trip to a respected dealer, play all the horns at the shop, talk to the staff, describe what you observe, and they should be able to help you. Maybe you’ll walk out with a good cornet rather than a trumpet?





If I have a chance, I want to play various horn. I think it'll take a long time to find the answer. Thank you.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kalijah"]
Quote:


Its not so much "resistance", but acoustics.

The position of the bell relative to your ears may also influence your perception of "ease".


+1

I played pocket trumpet for years, even as my main axe. In small venues pocket trumpet works very well but in big settings it can sound a little bit "blurty" for lack of a better word.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wacky, I’ve always found pocket trumpets to be considerably harder to play well than regular Bb’s, particularly in the upper register….
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than the resistance issue, the bell of a pocket being that much closer to your face can give the impression of an immediate response. I have only played older generation Z horns, and at that one or two many years ago, so I can't speak to their bells, but the Getzen you have is likely to have less feedback behind the bell and more projection out into the room than you experience with the pocket.

Ultimately, these differences in our subjective relationships with the horn form the foundation for our subjective assessments of many aspects of a horn's 'performance' - namely, response, resistance, and the horn's overall 'brilliance' alongside ultra-subjective terms like its 'bright' or 'dark' timbre across the board, or at different dynamic levels and in different ranges. Sometimes having more feedback behind the bell, or having a bell positioned a bit closer to the player - like as in a cornet, flugelhorn, or pocket - can make us more aware of inconsistencies in the instrument or our own playing. Also ultimately, most players adjust to these different attributes of instruments they keep in their active performing arsenal, and over time they begin to sound most like themselves on all the different gear.

So, it's good that you've found a horn that makes you want to play more. Since most of us have relatively high-quality recording and audiovisual playback devices in our pockets (if not actual pocket trumpets in there), record yourself on both your full-sized Bbs and the pocket from various distances away from you, and also do one with the mic positioned closely *BEHIND* you. See what you hear. What sounds best on the mic is the best indication of how you'll best sound to others, though the acoustic of the room in which you're recording also factors in significantly. This may also show you the slight disconnect between what our impression of our sound is and what it takes to recreate that sound for an intended audience at a given distance in an acoustic environment.

Have fun with it!
-DB
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the ACB doubler is anything like the Manchester Brass pocket trumpet (which was also made with design input from Trent and ACB), it is quite open, way more open (less resistance) than a lot of standard trumpets I have played. Don't know your Getzen.
My thought on my pocket is that it blows really easy (the main reason I bought it) because the wrap is more like a cornet than like a trumpet.
A lot of pocket trumpets have a great deal of resistance, but mine does not. You might just ask Trent. Looking at them on the webpage, it looks like the Doubler has a slightly tighter wrap than my Manchester with the forward bend in the first valve slide that I generally associate with tighter playing pockets, but since it is an ACB horn, I am sure it is more optimized than I can see from the pics.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
Wacky, I’ve always found pocket trumpets to be considerably harder to play well than regular Bb’s, particularly in the upper register….




I'm not lying. I'm still playing pocket trumpet and it's very comfortable for me.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
Other than the resistance issue, the bell of a pocket being that much closer to your face can give the impression of an immediate response. I have only played older generation Z horns, and at that one or two many years ago, so I can't speak to their bells, but the Getzen you have is likely to have less feedback behind the bell and more projection out into the room than you experience with the pocket.

Ultimately, these differences in our subjective relationships with the horn form the foundation for our subjective assessments of many aspects of a horn's 'performance' - namely, response, resistance, and the horn's overall 'brilliance' alongside ultra-subjective terms like its 'bright' or 'dark' timbre across the board, or at different dynamic levels and in different ranges. Sometimes having more feedback behind the bell, or having a bell positioned a bit closer to the player - like as in a cornet, flugelhorn, or pocket - can make us more aware of inconsistencies in the instrument or our own playing. Also ultimately, most players adjust to these different attributes of instruments they keep in their active performing arsenal, and over time they begin to sound most like themselves on all the different gear.

So, it's good that you've found a horn that makes you want to play more. Since most of us have relatively high-quality recording and audiovisual playback devices in our pockets (if not actual pocket trumpets in there), record yourself on both your full-sized Bbs and the pocket from various distances away from you, and also do one with the mic positioned closely *BEHIND* you. See what you hear. What sounds best on the mic is the best indication of how you'll best sound to others, though the acoustic of the room in which you're recording also factors in significantly. This may also show you the slight disconnect between what our impression of our sound is and what it takes to recreate that sound for an intended audience at a given distance in an acoustic environment.

Have fun with it!
-DB





Thank you. I can't find a clear reason yet, but your answer will be very helpful.
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metaljwe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
If the ACB doubler is anything like the Manchester Brass pocket trumpet (which was also made with design input from Trent and ACB), it is quite open, way more open (less resistance) than a lot of standard trumpets I have played. Don't know your Getzen.
My thought on my pocket is that it blows really easy (the main reason I bought it) because the wrap is more like a cornet than like a trumpet.
A lot of pocket trumpets have a great deal of resistance, but mine does not. You might just ask Trent. Looking at them on the webpage, it looks like the Doubler has a slightly tighter wrap than my Manchester with the forward bend in the first valve slide that I generally associate with tighter playing pockets, but since it is an ACB horn, I am sure it is more optimized than I can see from the pics.




Yes, as you said, the acb doubler is an open horn. But I'm not sure if other open trumpet will be comfortable to play.
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