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Brent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 1098 Location: St. Paul, MN
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Twin Tube Leadpipes |
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Cool win! Congrats, Brent! We know that any change from what is familiar to us can affect playability, of course. With this horn, could it be the leadpipe design with the twin tube or nickel silver or both...of other combinations in the trumpet? I've always liked the ring I get with nickel silver in the leadpipe. Some of the Eclipse trumpets I have had are a changeable leadpipe design, and the extra thickness alone creates new elements (to my ear) in the tonal profile. Again, congrats! |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Twin Tube Leadpipes |
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First Im not a horn builder but I would think it had to do with using a smaller thickness tube to move the air vs what you would have to use in keeping the pipe durable. IE a 10 gauge tube inside a protective tube vs a 40-50 gauge tube done as a single pipe?? Just my guess, I think you could probably also vary materials in that way. Depends what the builder is after.???
Rod ?? |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think I have two trumpet designs with the twin leadpipe made by Carolbrass: a Fides symphonic and a Mauriat 600. I believe they're yellow brass + nickel brass. Carolbrass I think also uses that design on their Euro models. They feel solid, but I don't think they weigh more than a traditional Bach strad. I think they look really cool but can't tell a major change in blow from a standard weight Carolbrass I have.
Who else does these? A quick search shows Van Laar and Schagerl and Berkeleywind, as well as some vintage Selmers. |
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nowave Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 453 Location: brooklyn
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I had a Selmer Concept TT for a few years, and it was a superb player in every respect. Hard to say what the twin-tube pipe actually did, but I didn’t like the thickness of the pipe and it added to my feeling of the horn being just a little bigger/heavier/more spread than I’m comfortable with.
Note that there are thick leadpipes made from a single piece of material (Taylor, I think), and then there are regular leadpipes and receivers with a sheath on top (Selmer). The Carol is the latter, right? Looks like a nice horn! |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: Twin tube leadpipes |
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I just finished a Scodwell replica of the Conn Vocabell trumpet which had a twin tube design leadpipe. I found some old Conn mouthpiece receivers which were quite long and with a bit of lathe work, made them fit inside the outer tube connecting to my normal leadpipe inside the outer tube. The outer tube ended as the tuning slide receiver and I used a rounded tuning slide crook similar to the old Conn along with the same dimensions as my normal tuning slides.The bell is thinner gauge and has no bead, also similar to the Conn. I decided against making the waterkeys a duplicate of the Conn as they are quite "Flash Gordon-ish" in design and it would've meant more time making them than the entire trumpet. The result was an outstanding trumpet which surprised the heck out of me, so much so that I decided to take it with me playing some concerts in August instead of the horn I have been playing for many years. It was uncanny how it responded and seemingly improved my facility through some passages I was having difficulty playing on my regular horn, like the Harry James solo on "Sing Sing Sing". One slight drawback was the bell is prone to denting a lot more easily than on my normal bells. The thinner gauge along with the annealing certainly made the bell softer. The twin tube leadpipe may be another reason why this horn plays so well and now I have to reverse engineer it to see what I actually did. I can say the old Conn mouthpiece receiver being so long changed the end gap measurement I normally use with my leadpipes and standard receivers. Perhaps there is some "magic" there I wasn't aware of. It certainly is worth repeating however.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's curious that they put the nickel on the outer since the brass is vulnerable to rot... _________________ Kevin |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Conn 40b Vocabell. It has the twin tube lead pipe. I could be wrong (just ask my wife) but the bell on it seems to me to be quite a bit thicker than my other horns. Also the valve cluster seems to be heavier. This horn seems to throw more sound out the front than my other horns. This also means less feedback behind the horn. But it is a wonderful instrument. I play it with a rock/horn band that plays very loudly. With the 40b I can cut through the sound easily. I sometimes can hear my sound coming back off the back wall louder than my sound in the monitors. I wonder it the weird water keys added mass on the crooks helps with the projection also.
I also had a Super Recording with a twin tube leadpipe. I didn't like it nearly as much as my single tube leadpipe Super Recording. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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mike ansberry wrote: | ...I could be wrong (just ask my wife)... |
This ^^^ is hilarious! Coming from another married man, I must say I wholeheartedly agree. Well said, Mike.
On a more serious note, I've had a few horns with the twin tube leadpipe, and have been really impressed with all of them: The only common denominator in these varied horns was the twin tube leadpipe.
Three of the horns were CarolBrass: a 628, and two 6580 models. To me, the twin tube leadpipe seemed to really zero in on efficiency.
I just got a Taylor Chicago 46 Jazz, it also has the twin tube leadpipe. It's so different (and still new to me) that I haven't yet identified the horns strong points in entirety, but again, the front of the horn seems particularly efficient; and the twin tube leadpipe is certainly a part of this.
I seem to have always enjoyed horns with a somewhat heavier mouthpiece reciever, but that enjoyment is peaked by a good twin tube leadpipe.
Great topic, I'm anxious to see what other's feelings are. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3635 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Twin tube leadpipes |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | I just finished a Scodwell replica of the Conn Vocabell trumpet which had a twin tube design leadpipe. I found some old Conn mouthpiece receivers which were quite long and with a bit of lathe work, made them fit inside the outer tube connecting to my normal leadpipe inside the outer tube. The outer tube ended as the tuning slide receiver and I used a rounded tuning slide crook similar to the old Conn along with the same dimensions as my normal tuning slides.The bell is thinner gauge and has no bead, also similar to the Conn. I decided against making the waterkeys a duplicate of the Conn as they are quite "Flash Gordon-ish" in design and it would've meant more time making them than the entire trumpet. The result was an outstanding trumpet which surprised the heck out of me, so much so that I decided to take it with me playing some concerts in August instead of the horn I have been playing for many years. It was uncanny how it responded and seemingly improved my facility through some passages I was having difficulty playing on my regular horn, like the Harry James solo on "Sing Sing Sing". One slight drawback was the bell is prone to denting a lot more easily than on my normal bells. The thinner gauge along with the annealing certainly made the bell softer. The twin tube leadpipe may be another reason why this horn plays so well and now I have to reverse engineer it to see what I actually did. I can say the old Conn mouthpiece receiver being so long changed the end gap measurement I normally use with my leadpipes and standard receivers. Perhaps there is some "magic" there I wasn't aware of. It certainly is worth repeating however.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
@Tony,
The Vocabell's had incredibly thick (.40") rims. I say that because there is no bead, of course. Not only that, but Conn tapered the metal from .250" at the tail-end to the thicker bell flair! Their engineering has yet to be surpassed, I think.
Also, you speak of the receiver being long on the Conn? The old ones I've taken apart are three-piece arrangements; receiver, (short), straight tube covering the receiver, and the leadpipe, which buts up against the receiver within the straight tube.
It's a little different than the Olds, which was another early example of a leadpipe within a sleeve.
Are the Carol Brass leadpipes removable? That would be the Olds design of long ago.
Best,
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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