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Buying a new Bach Strad


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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shawnino wrote:
Why would someone limit themselves to just Bach?


Because that is what his son has narrowed it down to. It's his choice and that's what he has decided.

Why does it matter? Maybe he researched a great deal and this is what he decided on.
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improver
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" why would someone limit themselves to just Bach" many would say there is no limit on Bach and that it is a Chameleon it can do everything.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
zaferis wrote:
improver wrote:
I'd buy the 37 190 series if I were getting a Bach. From what I understand pros are flocking to them. The new Bachs are maybe the best Bachs ever made. Jeremy Davenport just told me he got a 190 37 and really like it.


This!

Over the years I've played quite a number of different 37's (my favorite of the bells) On a lark I picked up a 19037 (50% anniversary edition), I haven't put it down since. Without going into why and the process / components that make this model distinct.. they are throwbacks to the process and conctruction techniques that made the 18037 the gold standard for generations.
Since I bought mine, I've had the chance to visit the Bach factory, see some built and play several.. they are incredibly consistent. I have not played one that I wouldn't buy and love.

I really hope that's the case. A couple of years back when I was helping a friend of mine pick out a new Bb, none of the Bachs we played stood up next to the horn he eventually ended up getting - a Yamaha Xeno Chicago. I didn't like any of them.

I think any of us who have been around for a while remember the days where the standard answer for what horn to get was, "Bach, but make sure you play a bunch of them to find a good one."


We must remember that the Bach consistnecy issue was a result of the factory being an auto union shop - mid 80's through 2002 (or so) - Twenty years ago. Since then the shop has refocussed on quality not quantity. Everyone can make a dog, but that old stigma of questionable Bach's needs to be understood and let go.

Then, because someone asked, the build differences between a 18037 and a 19037: (these used to be the traditional manner of building a Strad, but over the years faster, less expensive practices took over)

two piece valve balaster (more stability and response to the player)
side seam bell - alignes the bell seam with the braces = more resonance
round steel bell wire - more stable
nickel silver outer slides - more responsive
I believe the braces have been tweeked as well, a smaller footprint - also allowing more of the instrument to vibrate
(IMO the side seam bell and steel wire make a world of difference and it shows up in the hall)

Someone else mentioned Xeno.. to me copies of Bachs. The do play great (I have one for sale), smooth and comfortable to play.. BUT I notice on recordings and in the moment in big rooms the sound is not what I want to hear. The only way I can explain it, is that it's neutral and lacks my personality. Has less body and doesn't stand up or ring as much. But that's why I play Bachs.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Buying a new Bach Strad Reply with quote

HoosierBrass wrote:
As I go along with my son to purchase a new Bach Strad I wanted to get some opinions on what all to be aware of as we try each horn. He has it narrowed down to a Bach Strad but will be testing out some different models (180 with 43 bell, 37 bell, LR, and maybe a couple 190 models are on the list to try). I have not purchased a horn in probably 20+ years so I wanted to get an idea of some of the notorious things or idiosyncrasies to maybe be aware of with new Strads as he checks out the various horns. He of course plans to take his own mouthpiece and he has some "testing" passages in mind to give the horn a work out, but I would appreciate any feedback that you may have to allow us a good way to evaluate these horns that maybe wouldn't be obvious at first thought. Thanks for your help/insight!


I think the best advice would be to follow your plan and not listen to us! If something else catches the eye at the store, give it a try too.

As for the second part of your question: I would suggest the following items to use for testing, and to do the same with every horn (perhaps swapping horns for each test then moving onto the next test passage)
- Something simple and melodic, and already well rehearsed (see what the horn's "voice" is relative to the sound concept in your head)
- Simple ascending & descending Chromatic, major and minor scales (use this to see how the resistance feels going up in range as well as for the crispness of the valves and partial changes)
- A fanfare - or even bugle call (to see if the horn is prone to distorting on you)
- A couple select interval studies from the Arban book - whatever is practiced enough to be comfortable (to see how the response feels)
- Starting a note as soft as possible, starting a note FFF, and starting the highest pitch you can reliably start with-out set-up. (to see if the horn just "fits" is the only way I can describe this one - but you know it when you feel it)


And now, since everyone has their suggestions for trying something else: I'll put in a plug for an LR72 - but that's what I would suggest, and in the end, its about the person who has to play the horn and what they want.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
" why would someone limit themselves to just Bach" many would say there is no limit on Bach and that it is a Chameleon it can do everything.


Have at it
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HoosierBrass
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
Shawnino wrote:
Why would someone limit themselves to just Bach?


Because that is what his son has narrowed it down to. It's his choice and that's what he has decided.

Why does it matter? Maybe he researched a great deal and this is what he decided on.


That is exactly correct. He has played a handful of brands and tended to prefer the Bachs over the others. There are numerous great trumpet manufacturers and I am sure he would love others but for him it has been narrowed down to a Bach Strad so he wants to check out a few models before settling on the final choice.
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HoosierBrass
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have really enjoyed the helpful and thoughtful insight most of you have provided. It really helps us think about some things as we make some plans to have fun testing out some horns! Thanks so much!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoosierBrass; based on your handle I am going to assume that you are in the same state as Elkhart. Have you considered a visit to the Bach plant?

I don't now what the covid rules are in your state, but if they have opened, the sound room there simulates a number of venue types and is the best room to try out trumpets I have ever seen (heard).
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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HoosierBrass
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
HoosierBrass; based on your handle I am going to assume that you are in the same state as Elkhart. Have you considered a visit to the Bach plant?

I don't now what the covid rules are in your state, but if they have opened, the sound room there simulates a number of venue types and is the best room to try out trumpets I have ever seen (heard).


I had thought about doing that, but wasn't sure if I could. I knew I couldn't purchase it directly from them but I did think about visiting. It is only about 1 hour from where I am. I didn't know if they would let some random person come play their horns onsite or if they would just tell you to go to the dealers.
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improver
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know if the WWBW is across the street like it used to be in Elkhardt from Bach. But you can go in there and they bring you 20 Bachs out to play.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoosierBrass wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
HoosierBrass; based on your handle I am going to assume that you are in the same state as Elkhart. Have you considered a visit to the Bach plant?

I don't now what the covid rules are in your state, but if they have opened, the sound room there simulates a number of venue types and is the best room to try out trumpets I have ever seen (heard).


I had thought about doing that, but wasn't sure if I could. I knew I couldn't purchase it directly from them but I did think about visiting. It is only about 1 hour from where I am. I didn't know if they would let some random person come play their horns onsite or if they would just tell you to go to the dealers.


In the current environment, all I can say is "never hurts to ask". They used to be very open to customers.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Steve Hollahan
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject: Buying a Bach Reply with quote

I assume you mean a Strad. I've played a Strad mostly in the last 50+ years.
I recommend a 37 ML bore for auditions and college work. I also recommend a 229 CL bore. A Piccolo if feasible. I have a long bell Kanstul Besson in .460 bore.

The Yamaha Company has many great horns. The new Yamahas are incredible.

The main barrier to getting good horns nowadays is price. My first Bachs were bought at Zep's for under $650 (Bb & C). Lord was that a long time ago.

Are you close to Sam Ash? Many stock Strad Bb horns.
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HoosierBrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The WWBW doesn't have a place near South Bend like they did back in the day. I went there in the 90s and loved it. Seems like mainly online now for WWBW.

I might give Selmer a call and ask.

I am also close to Sweetwater and it looks they have very nice rooms that offer different room acoustics to check out their horns.

Also, since it has been years since I bought a horn, when trying the various models of Bach Strads, do most retailers typically have "showroom/floor models" that they let you try out whatever specific models you are looking at and then when you narrow it down will they pull ones from the back to see which horn really feels the best? Or do you start right off by grabbing a horn from their inventory? (I hope that makes sense).
Ultimately you want to play the horn you would actually be purchasing, but in the first phase of narrowing it down I wasn't sure if they would be willing to pull numerous horns from their sales inventory or just have some floor models to save wear and tear on the inventory horns.
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Dave_3
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoosierBrass wrote:

I am also close to Sweetwater and it looks they have very nice rooms that offer different room acoustics to check out their horns.

I've never bought a horn from Sweetwater, but I have purchased three higher end, acoustic guitars (two Martins, one Gibson) from them, and the experience was very good. All three guitars were bought on-line. They do have pictures of the actual instrument on their web site, but of course, I had never played any of them. Their customer service is great, and I felt comfortable with each purchase.

I suspect that store would be a great place to try out different horns. Give them a call, and see!
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, since it has been years since I bought a horn, when trying the various models of Bach Strads, do most retailers typically have "showroom/floor models" that they let you try out whatever specific models you are looking at and then when you narrow it down will they pull ones from the back to see which horn really feels the best? Or do you start right off by grabbing a horn from their inventory? (I hope that makes sense).


It depends on the store. Some have enough inventory to have a display model and others of the same model in stock; others don't. It also depends on the model. You might find stores with more than one 18037 -- by far Bach's most popular professional model Bb trumpet -- in stock, but just one of another model (if any).
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deleted_user_7354402
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it’s worth, when I have helped students of mine choose trumpets I would try several things with them. If he’s set on Bach, I would have them pull all the variations of the horns. For instance, Both the 180 and 190 models, 37bells 43 bells and any tuning slide or finishing variation (lacquer/silver). I would also ask the store to let me use a Yamaha Xeno or Shires or B&S as a kind of control. With careful supervision, I would have them close their eyes, and hand them each horn, let them put it through the paces, and take note of their responses to each horn.
I have them blind test because it can help eliminate the judgement of wanting to make a horn work because they think it’s the one they want. I’d have them do scales, some Arbans etude they can play from memory, something lyrical, and something pushing high and loud. Take notes of his reaction to each horn, and your reaction to his sound. Usually by the end of a few rounds of playing around like this, the answer will be pretty clear, one or two horns will stand out. I put the Xeno, Shires, or B&S into the mix of all this, to keep things fresh. Maybe they like something in the other trumpet sound, or hate something for that matter, that they can find in one of the Bach’s.
All that said, I would suggest calling Bach and seeing if you could come in and test horns. My experience has always been that buying horns at the pro level, any decent shop or manufacturer will go out of the way to be helpful. Plus, at the Bach shop, you’ll have a couple extra sets of ears to hear what is working your son.
Good luck. I hope you guys have fun going through all the horns.
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