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Hummell & Haydn, Bb vs. Eb Playing pros v cons



 
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:04 pm    Post subject: Hummell & Haydn, Bb vs. Eb Playing pros v cons Reply with quote

By the time I graduated school the Hummell nor the Haydn ever made it to one of my jury recitals. I'm only talking about the 1st movement in each. The school did not have an Eb (in working order) so I did my best to prepare on my Bb's. The/my Hummell was OK, maybe a B-/C+ on the Bb but the music director had me play a secondary etude for the grade instead. Next semester I went at the Haydn, again with a Bb but the (high Eb) was always sketchy so I didn't even ask and went with a substitute piece. I got through school but kind of feel I never conquered the 2 top pieces most trumpet majors did.

To me these are 'mountains' I didn't climb yet (in public performance) and I'm as determined as ever to recoup some personal respect by getting them both to performance level competence. The local JC will give me the opportunity if I can satisfy the performance requirements.

Question: How does playing the H & H on an Eb, lets assume a good one, change the players perception or reality of playing these iconic pieces compare to trying to do them on a 'good' Bb? ...Easier, harder, more intonation traps, tone issues, etc, etc,... This is just a side project but if I need to get an Eb to make it work I'd like to know your thoughts. I do have a Yamaha "C" I've been told could help?. Not sure how that helps but it's been suggested. I think I need, or would have a better chance of success, with an Eb horn. Opinions welcome.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've posed a serious philosophical question when you get down to it. But let's address your explicit question: "How does playing the H & H on an Eb . . . change the players perception or reality of playing these iconic pieces compare to trying to do them on a 'good' Bb?"

1. Acoustical/physical properties of the two different horns. On Bb, the partials are closer together at the top end of the compositions' ranges; the Eb trumpet is shorter and tends to sound less beefy; timbres at upper registers of instruments; you are playing in two different keys (according to the instrument); etc. All of these factors, for me, make it mentally and physically easier for me to approach and execute the compositions on Eb. I would feel very comfortable if someone called me to play them on Eb for a concert tomorrow but not if they asked for Bb.

2. Musical preference. What are your musical goals? Is it just execution of all the notes and rhythms or do you have a real artistic vision for the pieces? You can achieve musical mastery on both Bb and Eb. For me, it's more about the art than the craft; it is about how I am shaping each line, the articulation I use, the tension/release I am emphasizing, the delight I can impart, etc. Those can be achieved on either horn.

3. Evidence. You'll hard pressed to find somebody performing those pieces on anything other than Eb. In this last Ellsworth smith, no finalist decided on Bb for their instrument of choice and it's very hard to find a Bb performance on the internet.

4. The work. I would go as far as I possibly could on the Bb before purchasing an Eb. See how close you can arrive at your goals. The music is your teacher, it will show your your limitations and show you avenues for growth. Just throwing an Eb on it might make it easier but also might dampen your musical/trumpet journey. Try it for 3 months and see where it takes you.
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Aspeyrer
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may give some you some insight;

Many orchestra auditions in Europe (now Asia) require haydn to be performed on Bb Trumpet. Perhaps, it’s a right of passage or tradition, can’t tell you exactly. But, what you will see is those same pros performing Haydn/ Hummel on Eb trumpet in concert.

Intonation quirks are nearly a requisite when playing Eb. However, there are a couple licks in particular that the Eb smoothes things out nicely; 1st is the F to G trill (C to D on an Eb horn). 2nd is the 8 bar 16th note lick towards the end (1st mvt).
In general the Eb makes the piece “easier” to perform once you practice on that horn a good bit.

Perfectly reasonable to play it on Bb. C trumpet will put you in Eb making some of the licks/trills a bit more awkward and not really help with partial slotting on higher passages.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had played both the Hummel and Haydn by the time I graduated... high school. I played / performed them again in college at various points.

I think both of them lay better on Eb, but you have to have a good playing Eb to really take advantage of that. They're both fine on Bb as well, but they really fit nicely on Eb. Aside from just general comfort, the obvious difference is the trills are very manageable on Eb and often fairly tricky on Bb. It's been a long time so I can't remember which piece (maybe both) has what I vagely remember is a on the top of the staff to A trill - which is terrible on Bb and fairly easy on Eb.

It's also easier to get a light classical sound on Eb, I'd say. Bb can get a little plodding. I once performed the Hallelujah chorus on a Bb rather than piccolo (maybe for a rehearsal, can't remember) and it's possible to get that very light and classical sound like on a piccolo on a Bb, but it's fairly difficult and I was rather tired out from doing it.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
3. Evidence. You'll hard pressed to find somebody performing those pieces on anything other than Eb. In this last Ellsworth smith, no finalist decided on Bb for their instrument of choice and it's very hard to find a Bb performance on the internet.

Your point is 100% valid, but I vaguely remember hearing that the old Gerard Schwartz recording (which is very good IMO) was on Bb rather than Eb.
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deleted_user_7354402
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was in undergrad, my teacher had me put the Haydn on one of my recitals, the only caveat being that I wouldn’t have access to the Eb trumpets the school owned until a month before the recital (back in the day before I owned my Yamaha Eb). In order to prep I practiced the Haydn the following ways: I would play the whole concerto on Bb (as if it were going to be performed on Bb). Then I would play through the whole concerto again on Bb fingering as if I were playing Eb (effectively playing down a fourth), then finally I would play the whole concerto again on C trumpet in the original key of the concerto (I.e. playing in Eb).
A couple observations:
1: To play the concerto musically, at pitch, on Bb trumpet, I had to play as relaxed as possible. On Bb, you are essentially playing in the Clarino register so all of the expectations of the role are there. Ease of sound, graceful articulations, lightness of style. It is a standard ask in Europe and Asia to play these pieces on Bb trumpet for juries and prelim rounds of orchestral auditions, so it is 1) very possible to play on Bb musically and in appropriate style. 2) embrace the challenge, play along to your favorite recordings, while in Bb. Your body will naturally work to make your sound on Bb match the recorded sound.
2. Playing the concerto on Bb down a fourth helped me avoid any tiring practice on the Eb trumpet when I got it. I worked out all the trills, different fingering patterns etc, without the actual Eb in hand. The bonus for me was that, because I was playing it down a fourth this way, it kind of created the mental trigger that using the Eb fingerings was more relaxing than playing on Bb.
3. Playing back again at pitch on C trumpet was a conscious way of acclimating to playing the piece on a horn with more resistance. While working on it, it was the harder way of practicing but getting through it, gave me the added confidence that it would be easier to do on Eb trumpet. There was one additional bonus in doing this. The pitch tendencies on Bb trumpet we’re mostly ironed out switching to C trumpet. So by the time I picked up the Eb trumpet, I was more in control of where the note belonged.

All that said, that was a good 20 years ago. I played well for my age. I play the Haydn and Hummel much better now. I practice them on Eb, Bb, and C somewhat regularly as part of regular player maintenance. The big thing over time, is finding horns Bb, C, Eb, that play similar to each other and practicing on them regularly enough throughout the week so that switching is just part of the day.
The Haydn slots better on Eb than on Bb, which makes sense, it’s lower in the register of the horn. Remember to fill the Eb horn up with sound and keep your core engaged for air support.Lightness comes from the right articulation.

I hope these thoughts are helpful
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't play it properly on a Bb, it won't be right on the Eb.
Once you learn it on Bb, perform it on Eb as it is "easier" on the small horn.
R. Tomasek
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys for the response, I'm on the road this week-end in central Texas and the hotel I'm in has c#@pp3 net. I'll back home Sunday night and I have a lot to add (depends on what is considered add!) & ask.
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