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What is meant by roll in, roll out



 
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:24 am    Post subject: What is meant by roll in, roll out Reply with quote

Can someone explain in very specific, detailed, unambiguous terms what is meant by "rolling in" and "rolling out"?

Thanks!
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Last edited by Robert P on Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Unambiguous" is limited by the ability of the person to understand. What is clear to one person is unclear to another. That is why I spent pages in the BE book defining these actions.

For most players, the general term "roll in" is already unambiguous, as it replaced the more poorly-defined "lip curl." When a player rolls in the lips towards the teeth, the action reduces or eliminates the red of the lips showing. The best way (from my perspective) to accomplish this is illustrated in the BE book.

The general term "roll-out" is exactly the opposite, which means the lips move into a more forwards pucker. Look up pictures of Jerry Callet playing a double pedal, and you will see the roll-out position in action.

For anything more specific, including pictures of students, etc., and to understand the underlying philosophy of how these lips actions are best used together in a real-world trumpet environment, you really need to get the book.

Why are you asking this question? What do you hope to gain? Please be unambiguous in your answer.

Jeff
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert, I initially started working on BE in Germany, where I had no in-person help and was not aware of TH. The book explained everything well.

I subsequently had a few lessons from Mr. Smiley and confirmed that my understanding had been correct in the book's self-teaching period.

If you want to explore this with more specificity get the book. It has an accompanying CD that demonstrates just what is referred to in the book and I found the sound examples very helpful..
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Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: What is meant by "rolling in", "rolling o Reply with quote

My understanding -

Rolling In - the lip adjustment done that 'feels like' the lip tissue being pulled inward and perhaps over a tooth edge. Usually associated with the lip adjustment for increasing note pitch.

Rolling Out - lip adjustment done that 'feels like' pushing the lip tissue outward into a 'kiss' or 'smooch' position. Usually associated with decreasing note pitch.

There are exercises to exaggerate the 'rolling', to help train for more delicate and precise 'lip control' when actually playing - versus doing the exercises.

The amount of 'roll feel' can be an aspect of lip adjustment for setting the embouchure in position to produce the desired note.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
"Unambiguous" is limited by the ability of the person to understand. What is clear to one person is unclear to another. That is why I spent pages in the BE book defining these actions.

For most players, the general term "roll in" is already unambiguous, as it replaced the more poorly-defined "lip curl." When a player rolls in the lips towards the teeth, the action reduces or eliminates the red of the lips showing. The best way (from my perspective) to accomplish this is illustrated in the BE book.

The general term "roll-out" is exactly the opposite, which means the lips move into a more forwards pucker. Look up pictures of Jerry Callet playing a double pedal, and you will see the roll-out position in action.

For anything more specific, including pictures of students, etc., and to understand the underlying philosophy of how these lips actions are best used together in a real-world trumpet environment, you really need to get the book.

Why are you asking this question? What do you hope to gain? Please be unambiguous in your answer.

Jeff

Why are you asking this question?

I've heard or seen the terms used for some time including on TH and thought I'd try to get clarification as to what people mean when they say this. I was advised the BE forum was the best place to ask.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert, I still don't understand why you are asking the question.

Do you just want a general definition? In general, rolling the lips in and out seems pretty self evident to me.

However, a general definition will not help you to understand why these actions have any value, or how they are specifically applied in the BE method. In the book, there are literally dozens of pages devoted to this topic.

So again I ask, what are you hoping to gain?

Yes, this forum is a good place to ask. I am always happy to answer questions from anyone who is sincere. Knowing the motivation for the question is helpful.

Jeff
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:

Yes, this forum is a good place to ask. I am always happy to answer questions from anyone who is sincere. Knowing the motivation for the question is helpful.

It's not clear why you would have any reason to think my inquiry *isn't* sincere - the tone of both of your replies so far come across to me as implying this.

The motivation is exactly what I stated - to clarify what people mean when they use the term.

Quote:
Do you just want a general definition? In general, rolling the lips in and out seems pretty self evident to me.

Part of the equation is someone once said they thought my embouchure looks like I'm rolling in.

The reason it doesn't seem self-evident to me is observation of the reality of what happens when I play. With the small amount of tissue that's involved in forming the reed one plays with trapped against the teeth by the mouthpiece in addition to the fact that the airstream is constantly blowing the aperture open/out and there's no muscle trapped inside the rim I don't see any opportunity for this tissue to do anything that I would describe as rolling in.

The vermilion becomes less visually obvious simply due to the overall tissue compression and the elastic nature of the tissue. A certain amount of tension gets transferred under the mouthpiece to the buzzing tissue, the two halves get pushed together a bit as I play higher - the bottom lip drives up a bit. I wouldn't describe the sensation I experience as rolling in. If someone asked me to describe what's happening I might call it compressing, squeezing, an increase in tension. It would never occur to me to call it rolling in.

So, I ask for the specifics of what people mean when they say "rolling in" - thinking maybe it's a matter of semantics to describe the same thing, a term that isn't meant to be taken literally.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
So, I ask for the specifics of what people mean when they say "rolling in" - thinking maybe it's a matter of semantics to describe the same thing, a term that isn't meant to be taken literally.


Ah, if you had explained this initially, we could have saved some time.

In BE, the RI and RO exercises are literal. They are also called the "extreme range of motion" exercises.

However, the result of doing the exercises is complex. Some players end up with a regular playing embouchure that looks more rolled in, while some look more rolled out. And with others, it is difficult to tell by looking - unless you have many years of experience observing how players typically develop through BE.

I hope this provides the clarity that you requested.

Jeff
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Robert
Nice to see you on the BE forum. You wrote
Quote:
I don't see any opportunity for this tissue to do anything that I would describe as rolling in.

When I do the RO and RI exercises which Jeff alludes to as "the extreme range of motion" I see there is more in the equation than just lip tissue. All the muscles on the face which help form the embouchure, also the nose, the eyebrows, the jaw angle, the chin tension, the tongue, the degree of tension in the face, everything gets a full work out with these extreme exercises (which serves as "new intell" to enable your embouchure to evolve of its own accord) So even if you don't notice what your lips are doing, or can't detect any RO or in your case RI when you are playing normally heaps is going on "behind the scenes" so to speak.

"Magic" or "Science Fiction" both, I think, describe Jeff's BE.

Cheers for now and stay safe
Steve in Helsinki
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an exercise in the book, it's basically an arpeggio that takes you from double pedal to G over C high. I feel like my lips going up go into a roll in around c of the third space, but from high c my lips go towards the mouthpiece, there's some roll out, again.

This is how I feel, although I also think that the feeling may not be what is really happening.

Anyway, BE is a method, I don't think individual exercises make a difference, daily practice of the whole set of exercises does. My embouchure problems are just going away.

For me, BE teaches my body the necessary movement, exaggerating, then when playing music the body remembers, and the improvements remain.
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