BE - Roll In and Teeth Alignment

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Hi Folks,

I just wanted to share something here I've worked out last year with regards to a rolled in embouchure that might be helpful for others - or not. I'd be interested to know either way.

I have had a long interest in BE and I do very much believe the Jeff has worked something fundamental out here that separates those that play with ease from those that don't. I've been able to roll in, squeak etc for a long time, but always found some difficulty applying it to the instrument in a way that was useful beyond the squeaks. The reason being that when I roll in both lips, my jaw automatically comes forward to assist that process. That setting is like a triple C emboouchure, and I could never really relax it in a way that brought me into the low register or could really get too much by way of volume up there.

Even using a quite mild roll gets my jaw involved. A milder roll in does definitely work, but because of the jaw involvement, it gave me issues *I think* with connect registers because in the lower register I was playing downstream, as I moved into the upper register, I'd end up in a situation where small changes in jaw position and mouthpiece pressure distribution would change the airstream direction and that would cause all sort of issues. Then for the extreme upper register, I was all upstream (I think).

What I realised is if I really just focus mostly on rolling just the bottom lip, I could go from low to G over Double C with startling ease. When rolling just the bottom lip, the jaw doesn't want to help out, but the top lip still rolls in some, but not nearly as much. This works much better for me and, and interestingly, I can feel my lower lip automatically rolling a little as I change registers. Feels very natural and intuitive.

Strange that it took me so long to notice, I guess I'm a trumpet player and not a rocket scientist for a reason. Nevertheless, perhaps this personal observation will be of help to someone else...

[trumpetteacher1]

I'm glad that you have (apparently) discovered a way to have a more successful roll-in experience.

That said, do you own the BE book? Have you done the Roll In exercises as written in the book?

My experience is, if you do the exercises properly, all of the problems you mentioned fall away very quickly.

Players on the forum hear the term "roll-in," and start fooling around with trying to roll in their lips to see what happens. Usually, it results in something that is not useful or repeatable. They then decide that BE is not for them.

Of course, their problem is 1) there is more than one way to roll in the lips, and 2) they are not doing the BE exercises. BE gives instructions for how to roll in the lips correctly and provides specific constraints which steer the player into a useful RI experience.

In short, there is a world of difference between the hit-and-miss of playing around with rolling in your lips, and following a complete program specifically designed to resolve issues related to rolling in.

And of course, RI exercises are just part of the BE program.

Jeff

[kehaulani]

[steve0930]

Hi Trumpetingbynurture

Thanks for posting and stimulating the discussion - always nice when the BE forum gets some oxygen.

I saw that your last BE post was about 4 years ago - an interesting thread on "Full Time RI" One of my personal BE heroes Bert talked about a direct change with higher mouthpiece placement and how this changed his whole RI set up. But as Bert was quick to point out - his was the exception that proved the rule - which is that BE advocates embouchure development on "autopilot" as opposed to manual override or as Jeff would write "cold turkey." Bert went on to say:

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Hi Jeff,

I have the book, have had it for probably ten years, and have used both roll in and roll out exercises for most of that time. I think you've interpreted what I wrote as some sort of criticism which is a shame because it wasn't.

[trumpetteacher1]

I think everyone can see that I interpreted your post based on what information was given to me. That is why I asked you for more information.

It is also curious that you sent me a message a couple of years ago, saying that it was probably time for you to start exploring BE. I interpreted that as meaning that you didn't have the book.

Finally, it really does surprise me that players sometimes struggle with BE because of misconceptions, and yet never contact me to ask for advice. I don't charge for this. I will work with anyone. All I ask is that a player be sincere.

Jeff

[trumpetteacher1]

[steve0930]

Hi Jeff,

[trumpetteacher1]

Thanks Steve!

Jeff

[Trumpetingbynurture]

[steve0930]

Hello Trumpetingbynurtue

A jolly nice reply from you and sounds like you are / can be a resource for many. You wrote

[trumpetteacher1]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for that information about consultation. I will be in touch in the not too distant future.

Knowing you do offer consultations then people really should just forget my post and contact you directly if they are having issues with applying BE.

I personally have always thought that BE was really onto something fundamental.
Other than normal fundamentals, it's really the only thing I have come back to again and again, usually because something has gone a bit haywire, and it does always put me back in equallibrium.

The reason I have never really posted much is I didn't have anything much to add to the conversation. I still don't!

[trumpetteacher1]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your post above.

I think the tricky thing is walking the line in the practice room between pushing the envelope vs forcing. I haven't been through the irons books in a few years, but am going through the Colin lip flex book for a 3rd time. I usually stop around a concert high D/Eb as after that I start to feel a bit like I'm forcing, although some of the exercises I have taken up to Double A as they were a bit easier to extend.

In any case, I'm doing the BE exercises properly again and will see what happens over the next 6 months or so.

The hardest exercise in the book for me is the Roll In + TOL exercise. I pretty much can't do it, at least not currently. It's really hard to get that top lip down below the teeth edges when rolled in past a certain point. This probably explains why it's easier for me to K tongue an entry in the upper register than to tongue it with the tip.

The standard TOL exercise (which I assume is supposed to be done without RI or RO unless I missed something) are fine until about the D in the staff then that top lip's slow creep upwards starts to make it hard to contact it with the tongue ... Which just means I have to keep working at it until it gets better I expect.

[trumpetteacher1]

Chris, I appreciate your honesty.

I guess that we are going to get into psychology.

What exactly is "forcing?"

To me, it is not tangible. Rather it is a quality that players have assigned in their mind. Saying that you are "forcing" is very much like saying that you are using "too much pressure."

The fact is, no player actually knows how much force or pressure is too much, especially when they are at a particular development stage, or not yet developed at a very high level. Studies have shown that pro players at times use a lot more pressure than amateurs. For them this is a normal part of the playing experience.

EDIT - the following is an example of a particular issue. To be clear, I am NOT saying that you have this issue.

One of the biggest challenges for me (after writing BE) was to learn how to deal with players who carry around the "too much pressure" baggage. I encounter these players all the time. Once you start thinking about mouthpiece pressure, and believe that it is a limiting factor, you are lost. It becomes ingrained in your way of thinking.

Prior to BE, I only had one student who somehow picked up that belief (in high school). Twenty-five years ago, I remember giving him a lesson in his living room. I asked him to play a two octave D scale, up and down. He did it, and sounded great. But immediately afterward, he shook his head, and said "too much pressure." At that time, I really didn't know how to respond, so I let it drop. A big mistake. He later went to college, and studied with every teacher he could find, in hopes of solving the pressure problem. All that happened was that he got more and more screwed up, until he could barely play anything at all.

Years later, he noticed that I had written BE, so he contacted me about resuming lessons. I spent a lot of time convincing him that pressure was not his problem. Even so, it took about 6 months to resolve the issue.

Regarding the pressure issue, it is better to learn how to play with abandon. Push the envelope, rest when tired, and let the pressure take care of itself.

Regarding your difficulty with TOL while rolled in - this is not an option. You need to learn how to do it. And that goes double for being able to spit on the top lip during the regular TOL exercise. In your case, you are doing the exercise precisely to learn how to pull down the top lip into the airstream. A lot of players hit the wall about D in the staff. Getting higher than D requires shifting your setup downwards. Most players eventually figure out how to pull their corners down a bit.

What I've written so far are general comments. Specific comments are reserved for players who I work with, after more clearly understanding their individual situations.

As always, hope this helps!

Jeff

[Trumpjerele]

Hi Jeff, we would love to read about the psychology of trumpet students or types of students. We already have some things about the types of trumpet teachers in the BE book, it would be good to read about the other side of the coin, the students.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies

Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4

Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge

[trumpetteacher1]

Trumpjerele, everyone is biased. My attempt in the BE book to categorize teachers was to show how teacher bias will affect how a lesson is taught.

With students, it is more about uncovering what kind of fear they bring into a lesson. Fear is the great multiplier of embouchure problems. Fears can be deeply ingrained, and quite powerful. Sometimes a teacher can address a fear directly, but more often it is necessary to address it indirectly (kind of like immersion therapy). Otherwise, you run the risk of shutting down progress completely.

Students tend to justify their fears, or barely be aware they exist. Common fears, and student rationalizations for those fears include:

Fear of mouthpiece pressure (it should be effortless).

Fear of high notes (high notes are difficult or painful)

Fear of playing loud (it is too ugly)

Fear of playing with abandon (I might lose control)

Fear of appearance (I look terrible with puffed cheeks or playing to one side)

Fear of experimenting (It doesn't feel natural)

There are many more. And each would deserve a long commentary explaining why each fear is unnecessary, and how to overcome it via the BE exercises and get back on the path to progress.

Teaching is not easy.

PS - I edited my post above this one to make it clearer. Trying to stay ahead of the curve.

Jeff

[Trumpetingbynurture]

Thanks for another great post, Jeff.

I'm tempted to keep responding in the hopes you'll keep replying with such great stuff.

Thanks for the push to persist at the TOL. I'll keep at it and see what happens and let you know and I'll be less complacent about working the upper register more assertively.

[Trumpetingbynurture]

A lot of what you've said in the last two posts really rings true with my own experiences. Ideas about playing get in your head and set limits on you, and you seldom realise it's even happening. Often it's not that the idea itself is wrong, it just might be "wrong for now" or "was right 2 years ago and no longer relevant". Or often it's invisible confusion over linguistics. One person says something about playing, the other person or student thinks they get what is meant, but it's wrong in subtle way that would take a lot of words to uncover and correct. And because it's 90% right, it's helpful to some extent until it isn't, at which point you run into a roadblock and can't work out why you have a limitation that just won't resolve itself. And on it goes.

I have had this happen to me with probably every aspect of playing I think, and it will probably happen over and over I expect. Unfortunately, it can take months or years to realise what random little piece of code in the brain is throwing up an error. It's usually completely invisible to ourselves and can take months for even the most perceptive teacher to realise what is really happening.

All this is to say that not only is there so much information out there of varying degrees of usefulness that it's hard to know which ones to take in, it's also hard to know which ones to toss out.

The funny thing to me is that old adage "trumpet playing is 95% mental". Usually said as though having 95% of what makes for success be an invisible process is somehow supposed to make things easier not harder...