sterilizing a horn after covid

[fintonissimo]

Hi all, I didn't find anything by searching the forums, but I was wondering what would be the best way to sterilize a trumpet after having Covid.

My student recently came down with Covid, and I was wondering what he should do to sterilize his trumpet after he has recovered. My initial impression is that a warm soapy bath with thorough brushing/swabbing with a snake would be good enough. The horn is silver, so there is no worry over potentially damaging a lacquered finish.

Any insights?

Thanks, Chuck

[Goby]

"Sterilize" is a medical term for completely devoid of germs and pathogens (like a brand new surgical scalpel). You can't "sterilize" something that is exposed to air, as it will instantly pick up dust, mold, bacteria, and other stuff. I think you're looking for a disinfectant protocol, in which case a bath with warm, soapy water should be more than sufficient. Most pathogens cannot survive on copper alloys or silver for more than 2 hours, so the horn should be fine with no cleaning, but with the amount of sludge that often lives inside trumpets, a bath is probably the best bet.

I hope your student has a speedy recovery! Stay safe.

[LittleRusty]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

Soap and lukewarm water should be sufficient to remove most, if not all of the Covid-19, because soap molecules tears the virus's membrane apart (source).

[shofarguy]

Find a pharmacy that sells 99% Isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. dunk parts in a quart jar of it and, afterward, pour the alcohol into the bell and other pipes. If you have Spitballs or Blow-Dry Brass foam plugs, dunk those in the alcohol and blow them through the clean horn.

That should be about as good a result as possible without an autoclave.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[JoseLindE4]

When I caught COVID, I just practiced on a backup horn. This was to keep from blowing any congestion/mucus into my good horns. Once I was recovered, I switched back to my main instruments. It was a performance decision (keep my good horns clean) rather than anything health-related. I didn’t do any special cleaning of the backup or main horns outside of normal maintenance. I can’t imagine anything COVID-related surviving very long inside an instrument.

For a student’s horn, a bath is probably always a good idea. If it makes anyone feel better, use this as an excuse to have the student clean the horn.

[Beyond16]

The other day, I poured a pint or so of concentrated bleach down the mouthpipe of my tuba. I then pressed all 3 valves and blew it through. Then I rinsed with the water hose on the mouthpipe, letting several gallons flow with the valves pressed and also working them. No more musty smell. It sounds extreme, but the result seems good.

[Goby]

Putting bleach in a horn sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. I wouldn't want a caustic chemical like that sitting in my horn, nor would I want to inhale any fumes while playing. Rubbing alcohol would also seem to be a bad idea as it would break down the lubricants on the pistons and slides. Soap and water is fine for disinfecting an instrument. Just get the organic sludge out of the inside, as that is the only surface that could potentially harbor pathogens.

[ghelbig]

[Richard III]

[OldSchoolEuph]

If you do a little research, you will find srudies showing that covid survives for less than an hour on mildly oxidized yellow brass. Silver is listed as an anti-viral agent by the CDC (even against Ebola). But to be absolutely sure, you can clean the horn normally and then rinse out with isopropyl alcohol. Take the felts and soak those in alcohol and the carefully dry them. You will need to keep them in the right order, and also make sure it doesn't compress them. If it does, replace with matched thicknesses.

Do not use bleach or acids or peroxide. All of these can really damage the horn.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[shofarguy]

The reason I recommended 99% Isopropyl Alcohol is that I have found in tests that it leaves an extremely clean surface on yellow brass plate. This was used as a surface preparation prior to applying a hydrophobic/oleophobic nano-coating. The coating performed noticeably better in tests when the surface was prepared with 99%, as opposed to 70% or even 90% Isopropyl.

It seems to me that a clean surface is best for health. 99% Isopropyl is better than any other surface cleaner I've tested.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[huntman10]

Regarding chlorine bleach for cleaning instruments, the chlorate is bleach is a powerful oxidizer, and will corrode metal surfaces (especially silver) to the point of removing metal, and making metal halides (e.g. silver chloride) that could have health concerns.

I would not advise this.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[TrumpetMD]

This type of question comes up once in a while. I'm surprised it hasn't come up more in the last 18 months.

Speaking as a physician. You can not sterilize a horn without damaging it, as has already been stated. In addition, you can't disinfect a horn without first cleaning it.

Most of the microorganisms in a trumpet are living in crud and other debris inside your horn. So the best way to disinfect a horn is to do a normal cleaning (warm water, Dawn dishwashing liquid, and cleaning snake/brushes). This is what the OP suggested, and he is correct.

It likely won't harm the horn to do more, such as using 70% isopropyl alcohol, but it likely won't help much more than a good cleaning. Keep in mind that COVID-19 and most other non-enveloped viruses can only live for a couple hours on metal surfaces. Someone suggested 99% isopropyl alcohol, which is a good cleaning agent (as that person noted), but which is not a good anti-microbial agent (you need 10-30% water in the alcohol for it to be anti-microbial).

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.

[Brassnose]

Materials chemist here. Putting bleach or acids or anything along those lines in a brass instrument is a bad idea for two reasons:

1. When blowing through the horn afterwards, you only need to inhale a little bit of bleach- or acid-loaded air and you’re in trouble. This also goes for isopropyl alcohol - not good for you (mind you, IPA is not ethanol - related but different compound. You can’t drink IPA).

2. Acids and bases can attack metals and alloys - the keywords are the redox potential and the solubility product. Zinc already dissolves in so-called non-oxidizing acids while for copper you‘ll need an oxidizing acid. The latter is typically not found in households, so what you’re doing with a household acid treatment is removing the zinc. In fact you’re doing a power approach to red rot. Similar processes go for extremely basic solutions such as bleach.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Shaft]

It seems like the CDC said last year at a white house press conference that

Once the virus landed on a surface it could only survive for 6 seconds.

Not sure if that applies to inside of a dark wet metal trumpet that was played.
Not sure if that statement was ever modified since that presser either though.

Pretty sure a normal warm soapy water bath would make me feel fine about it.

[Irving]

I don't think that the virus can remain active for more than a few hours on brass. Even less time on pure copper. Empty the horn of saliva when you are done playing, and swab out the lead pipe and tuning crook. If you keep the horn clean it should be fine.

[J. Landress Brass]

I think many of you are missing an important factor. You all say that Covid does not survive on brass long, which is true when it is on an open surface. With the insides of an instrument it is very, very different.

The inside of your horn is filled with biofilm and condensation from warm air which can contain the virus and survive. Do any of you remember the who trombone lung thing and the study of all the nasty bacteria and viruses that lived in a horn? Covid is no different.

Especially if you have had covid and even if you have not had it you should wash your horn in warm soapy water. Completely disassemble the horn, all slides, caps and valves and give your horn a proper bath, snaking out all parts. There is really no other short cut that works!

Josh
_________________
Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com

[TrumpetMD]

[fintonissimo]

Thanks one and all for all of the great information, and for confirming my original thought. I didn't want to tell my student the wrong thing, so I appreciate the feedback; and I learned a couple things as well!