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shermantrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2014 Posts: 48 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:08 am Post subject: |
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He plays by ear? Great! Emphasize that he needs to learn tunes in all keys, then find some of your wedding music that has some technical challenges you think he needs (don't tell him that's why you picked that tune). Have him work on those 2-8 measures first in all keys, then learn the whole tune. He'll be practicing fundamentals without even realizing it.
Get him into a routine of that, and maybe similarly learning improv licks in all keys or using a 4 measure pattern up by half steps to work on range. IF he's interested in learning those things, he may develop a habit of working in a methodical way, and maybe when he is in the habit of working that way, you can introduce Clarke, Arban, Vizzutti, etc to the mix. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3274 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: |
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For scales, there are some very basic things that need to be learned
1) The order in which Sharps and Flats get added to a key signature.
2) For major scales, the 7th has to be 1/2 step below the the 8th. If the 7th has to be sharped, then ALL the previous sharps (from #1) are also in the key signature, and that sharpened 7th is the Last sharp in the key signature.
3) If the 7th does not have to be sharpened, then the key signature uses flats.
4) The major scale 1 full step higher has 2 sharps added (or flats removed) to the original key signature.
5) The major scale 1 full step lower has 2 flats added (or sharps removed).
FWIW - when i took lessons, I 'played' the various scales, etudes, and tunes in their key signatures, but there was never any attention on me 'learning the scales' or any theory about key signatures. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | For scales, there are some very basic things that need to be learned
1) The order in which Sharps and Flats get added to a key signature.
2) For major scales, the 7th has to be 1/2 step below the the 8th. If the 7th has to be sharped, then ALL the previous sharps (from #1) are also in the key signature, and that sharpened 7th is the Last sharp in the key signature.
3) If the 7th does not have to be sharpened, then the key signature uses flats.
4) The major scale 1 full step higher has 2 sharps added (or flats removed) to the original key signature.
5) The major scale 1 full step lower has 2 flats added (or sharps removed).
FWIW - when i took lessons, I 'played' the various scales, etudes, and tunes in their key signatures, but there was never any attention on me 'learning the scales' or any theory about key signatures. |
This is so far ahead of where this kid is right now, I can't even begin to approach things at that level.
Right now I'm having him play up and down a C scale, articulated, and focusing on making sure valves and tongue are synced. We need to crawl before we can walk.
If I even began to throw any of that at the kid, he'd give me the deer-in-the-headlights look and likely shut down. I need to establish some trust first, and then slowly work in new scales/keys. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: |
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I am guessing he's probably capable of doing something like Greg Wing's 20 minute routine or something similar. You could even scale it back to 10 or 15 minutes by removing exercises.
https://www.gregwingtrumpet.com/uploads/2/1/4/0/21407028/20_minute_routine_revised_june_2013.pdf
I think that this is a great blueprint/template to build around. You could substitute lip slurs from any book (Schlossberg, Irons, etc.). You could eventually get to the expanding scales at the end, but in the meantime substitute two or three variations of the c scale each week. When he's ready, move on to other keys.
I think you could get just about anyone to commit to 20 minutes of fundamentals. Then move on to the fun stuff. Good luck, I hope it works out and you can help the kid. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6157
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Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | I always tell the new student this story.
When little kids begin playing soccer they just run around the field, following the ball with no understanding of playing positions, how to pass the ball, structuring plays, or anything about fundamentals. The just want to kick the ball with no regard to fundamentals. When they get to about 7th or 8th grade the coaches get down to the nitty gritty. Hours of drills and technique development with a relatively small amount of actual playing of the game. This is when over 50% of kids quit because they don't want to learn fundamentals, they just want to have fun. Those that have the maturity to work hard on the fundamentals become good players. Those that don't, well........... Now which would YOU rather be?
You are the teacher.
He is the student. |
Great quote! |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: |
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gwood66 wrote: | I am guessing he's probably capable of doing something like Greg Wing's 20 minute routine or something similar. You could even scale it back to 10 or 15 minutes by removing exercises.
https://www.gregwingtrumpet.com/uploads/2/1/4/0/21407028/20_minute_routine_revised_june_2013.pdf
I think that this is a great blueprint/template to build around. You could substitute lip slurs from any book (Schlossberg, Irons, etc.). You could eventually get to the expanding scales at the end, but in the meantime substitute two or three variations of the c scale each week. When he's ready, move on to other keys.
I think you could get just about anyone to commit to 20 minutes of fundamentals. Then move on to the fun stuff. Good luck, I hope it works out and you can help the kid. |
This is great - I didn't even know this 20 minute routine existed, but it's a nice approach and one that just about anyone could use to benefit, no mater how experienced. I'll send this to him and try to get him to use it.
I've been thinking about this kid a lot, and I have decided to simply be frank with him. Yes, playing trumpet is, and should be fun, but when you play better because you've put the work in on technique, it's even more fun. In short, he HAS to get used to the idea of doing some drills to improve his playing overall. A person has to have fluency on their instrument in order to effectively play - there's just no getting around that.
I have another lesson with him today so we'll see how it goes. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Patrick Hasselbank Regular Member
Joined: 02 Aug 2021 Posts: 49 Location: German
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Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | gwood66 wrote: | I am guessing he's probably capable of doing something like Greg Wing's 20 minute routine or something similar. You could even scale it back to 10 or 15 minutes by removing exercises.
https://www.gregwingtrumpet.com/uploads/2/1/4/0/21407028/20_minute_routine_revised_june_2013.pdf
I think that this is a great blueprint/template to build around. You could substitute lip slurs from any book (Schlossberg, Irons, etc.). You could eventually get to the expanding scales at the end, but in the meantime substitute two or three variations of the c scale each week. When he's ready, move on to other keys.
I think you could get just about anyone to commit to 20 minutes of fundamentals. Then move on to the fun stuff. Good luck, I hope it works out and you can help the kid. |
This is great - I didn't even know this 20 minute routine existed, but it's a nice approach and one that just about anyone could use to benefit, no mater how experienced. I'll send this to him and try to get him to use it.
I've been thinking about this kid a lot, and I have decided to simply be frank with him. Yes, playing trumpet is, and should be fun, but when you play better because you've put the work in on technique, it's even more fun. In short, he HAS to get used to the idea of doing some drills to improve his playing overall. A person has to have fluency on their instrument in order to effectively play - there's just no getting around that.
I have another lesson with him today so we'll see how it goes. |
Good luck in this new challenge! _________________ Check out my scores: https://musescore.com/sheetmusic
The program of training me as a musician: https://musescore.com/courses/trumpet |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:03 am Post subject: |
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I thought I'd post an update to this.
I've been working with this kid now for a couple of months and I wish I could say I'm turning him into a stellar player.
The main obstacle is the kid himself. He wants to play what he likes, and he doesn't want to be bothered with things he doesn't. Translated, he doesn't like exercises, and he loves his pep band packet.
There is a win there though. He actually likes playing.
There's an added challenge of getting this kid time behind the horn at all. He's a good kid who wants to get good grades, and he's also involved in sports and activities in his church and community, so he's spread pretty thin.
What's frustrating for me is that I can hear it - he has the tools to be able to do more with it than he's currently doing, but I wish he'd just trust what I'm telling him. If he were to buckle down for even 1 month and do exactly what I told him to and how to do it, he'd take a major leap with what he's capable of doing, but he doesn't want to work on it if he doesn't like doing it.
I make lessons out of the music he's working on. We'll take a passage and talk about how to play it, shifts in articulation, I'm trying to teach him about phrasing, inflection, and using the markings on the page to extrapolate the style and feel, but he'd be doing better if he'd work on the technical side of playing more.
There's hope though - I didn't start down the path of doing exercises and drills until I was well into high school, but I'd hoped to get him ahead of the curve by getting him to do it now.
Should I push it harder? Dunno - if I do, I could push the kid away from the horn and I'd rather see if I can finesse a way to steer him towards the kinds of practice he really should be doing.
So that's the update on that. Again, I'm open to suggestions for how to move this kid towards more technical work without killing his interest in playing in general. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3274 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | ... I'm open to suggestions for how to move this kid towards more technical work without killing his interest in playing in general. |
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In the things that he likes to play, are there portions that need improvement and could be used as the basis for 'technical work' that is needed?
Or maybe you provide some challenging pieces that he would enjoy, but would also need to practice - as a substitute for typical technical material. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:16 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | trickg wrote: | ... I'm open to suggestions for how to move this kid towards more technical work without killing his interest in playing in general. |
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In the things that he likes to play, are there portions that need improvement and could be used as the basis for 'technical work' that is needed?
Or maybe you provide some challenging pieces that he would enjoy, but would also need to practice - as a substitute for typical technical material. |
There are definitely things for him to continue to work, even with the stuff he plays every day. He's got some basic ability, but he's pretty raw.
He's also the kind of kid who wants to know why - it's not just enough to say, "you should do it this way." He wants to know why he should do it that way.
He's only in 8th grade this year, so I'm looking forward to when he's in high school and the music becomes more challenging for him. I have some plans for him for regional music contests too - I'd really like to coach him through a contest solo. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:27 am Post subject: |
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"If you've got one foot in the past and one foot in the furure, you're dumping on the present." _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | "If you've got one foot in the past and one foot in the furure, you're dumping on the present." |
Interesting statement, but in some ways, it's (IMO) kinda dumb.
One could also posit that you have to know where you've been and have an idea of where you're going so that you can make good use of your time now. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1799 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think the updates on this student's progress highlight a pretty fundamental part of what makes teaching difficult - it doesn't really matter what you know or how you can help them if they're not interested. (Or, at least, not interested enough to be willing to put in work when they don't immediately understand how it will help them.)
It's a whole other ballgame teaching students who are independently motivated, but for those who have to be convinced, personally, I've never been very satisfied with the results that came from trying to insist on playing technical exercises. (Even if it is the right exercise at the right time, if their heart isn't in it, results are likely to be disappointing, IMO.)
I won't claim to have it all figured out, but in those cases, I mostly stick to things they already want to play, or like upon first hearing, and focus on that, aiming to draw in technique in the context of the piece. For some kids, I find they need to get good results and obvious successes before they're convinced enough that they care about the trumpet to be willing to work seriously, and trying to get them to be able to do something they're already into can be a good step towards that. |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: |
As much as he says he doesn't want to do "scales scales scales," as he says his piano teacher puts it, if he's going to make progress, he needs to work on some of those fundamentals - at present he needs to clean up his articulation, and he needs to get his fingers and his tongue synced a bit better.
I do want to keep it fun for him, but he's going to have to find a balance between doing the important work so that the fun part is easier and even more fun. |
When I was getting bored with working on my Major scales my instructor had me use Jamey Aebersold's ii-V7-I (back then on CD) to play along with. In less than a month I had the Majors down. For me it was fun to play and didn't seem like working on fundamentals. |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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@trickg,
At this point I think that keeping it interesting for him is what is important. Once he gets in to high school, maybe he will become motivated to improve and start seeing those exercises in a different light.......or maybe he wont. Solo and ensemble could light that spark or it may take not performing well at one of those events to light it. The fact that he is still interested in lessons are a good sign. _________________ Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)
GR 66M/66MS/66**
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345 |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'm assuming he's going to get past the braces issue as he acclimates to things.
You say he likes being at the top of the pile. Maybe let him know that if he continues to pursue it, eventually he's going to be in competition with those who do the hard work on the technical skills. Maybe even find someone who's his age who's clearly better than him and who got there by doing the kind of work you want to encourage him to do and hold them up as an example. "You wanna play like he/she does? You need to do what they do." _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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