• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Maintaining endurance



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Daniel Lombard
New Member


Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Maintaining endurance Reply with quote

I graduated with a performance degree about a year ago, and am in the in between stage of having enough gigs/students to function and am working a full time job. I manage to get at least an hour of playing in a day, usually at least 2 and sometimes as much as 4. However, my endurance just isn't where it was when I was playing for 6+ hours every day. Does anyone have any advice on how to get my endurance up? or should I just accept it wont be where it was until I have time to pay as much as I did while in school?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brassmusician
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2016
Posts: 273

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it might be possible for you to change the type of practice you already do to get more bang for your buck. For example, Caruso, if you don't already do it, could greatly add to your endurance. The Schlossberg routine of David Belknap recently discussed here on TH could be another. Be a matter of experimenting to find what works the best. Maybe using the PETE device to do lip isometrics. Pop's range improvement book, the pyramid of high notes idea, could be another worth investigating. My personal take at the moment is playing higher and longer musical phrases. Of course it always pays to check the efficiency of your technique etc.
_________________
Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 781

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: Maintaining endurance Reply with quote

Daniel Lombard wrote:
I graduated with a performance degree about a year ago, and am in the in between stage of having enough gigs/students to function and am working a full time job. I manage to get at least an hour of playing in a day, usually at least 2 and sometimes as much as 4. However, my endurance just isn't where it was when I was playing for 6+ hours every day. Does anyone have any advice on how to get my endurance up? or should I just accept it wont be where it was until I have time to pay as much as I did while in school?


I've long been suspicious of equipment choices. Which of course usually means mouthpieces. Although horns can contribute to this matter greatly too. As a professional for a number of my adult years I gradually began to identify over-training as my major source of endurance issues. Thus I began working into mouthpieces which did more and more of the workload for me. Rather than maintaining a near bionic pair of lips.

Maintaining a powerful embouchure is all well and good however there exists a fine line between being in great shape and possessing over-trained chops. Look at it this way,

I could gradually work myself into fine shape and play a fairly demanding gig on a Bach 3C mouthpiece. Save and except that on such a mouthpiece I wouldn't be advised to blow many High F's and G's. So let's say that I used this mouthpiece in a working R & B band. Or maybe a concert band of some reputation. Where I played four hour gigs + rehearsals various times per week. In fact I used to have such demands upon my playing. And it took me a year and a half to work up the stamina necessary to pull it all off. While screech work wasn't part of the job there was a lot of demand for me to pump out the volume. At least up to high C. Which were handed out generously in my score. To keep the club goers on the dance floor.

Now the interesting thing here is that just my mouthpiece selection alone required me to maintain powerful chops. Indeed I had become a slave to that 3C mouthpiece. And on balance it really didn't offer me any advantage that a shallower piece could have provided. The fact is that a well customized shallow mouthpiece used by a trumpet player who is fairly experienced with shallower cups can provide all benefits generally provided by the 3C piece but at virtually no risk to leaving him becoming over-trained.

Indeed in just the past almost three years I have learned to adjust to an almost radically shallow piece but with a very open throat/back-bore combination. And because this mouthpiece now does the great bulk of the workload for me?

I can meet all of my playing demands even after a three week lay-off. I'm no longer a "slave" to the horn. And seeing how the only time I play the trumpet is when I choose to? I'm no longer forced to maintain that extra strong set of chops. And I'm no longer at risk of having my chops burn out from over-use.

This suggested scenario sounds simple and it really is. However much resistance remains within the trumpet playing community. Resistance that is to what college level profs have taught us for a hundred years now. Too much emphasis has been placed upon colleges and music schools to prepare trumpets for a career of symphony music. But there's a problem here,

Few gigs exist for classically trained trumpets!

When I was in my mid teens and preparing for music college and/or playing gigs professionally I worked very very hard at building my range. Perhaps even at the exclusion of other skills which sometimes caused me embarrassment after I went away to the conservatory.

However five years after I dropped out of that school I checked up on some of my fellow trumpet music majors from back in college. Only one of them, a brilliant and gifted player had found a steady symphony job. All the rest had taken up teaching. In other words the rest had failed utterly at keeping pace with the demands of range and endurance typical of paying gigs.

And these were guys who just about crushed me on legit juries. I'm talking guys who could play the Hummel dead perfect and blow the Carnival Of Venice as fast as anyone. But...

They didn't have high note chops. And I did. In addition they all used mouthpieces between Bach 3C and 1C. Which in addition to requiring them to work like slaves? Is a damned hard mouthpiece to get a good sizzle on. You can get a sizzle on large pieces but it takes a lot more work. That and excessive arm pressure. Usually anyway.

And yet with a well crafted shallow cup with say a #22 to #23 throat?

You can get a fine sizzle. That and the flexibility to turn it on and off at will. You've heard the old saying,

"Work smart, not hard"?.

It applies double to lead trumpet playing.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2052
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think that there are different aspects of "endurance".. for instance, playing a 60 minute Brass Quintet set can be significanlty more taxing than a 3 hour musical. Then there is a significant difference between pratice room endurance and gig endurance.

Practice wisely, and train like an athlete. You can't run a marathon every day, nor do you run 52 miles a day to train for a marathon.
Daily Routine = renue, review and hone skills. Rest is important for muscles to recover.

As another post suggests, equipment can be a factor (IMO there are 3 parts your sound: you, mouthpiece and trumpet-the 3 must work in harmony).
As your play requirements change and as you get older, your equipment may also need to change.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
1jazzyalex
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Jun 2016
Posts: 558
Location: San Jose, CA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a routine out of the Schlossberg book that's been talked about on here, something like "the best advice I got on here" or something. It's a routine used by a highly skilled, Los Angeles, studio guy so ... a top gun. I'm sure you can find it on here if you look.

A much simpler exercise is also discussed on here, called "19/30s" and is just a way to fool yourself into doing lots of long tones
_________________
Yamaha 200AD trumpet w/Blessing 3C
Yamaha cornet w/Blessing 3C

~Working towards that round, pear-shaped sound~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1138
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: Maintaining endurance Reply with quote

Daniel Lombard wrote:
I graduated with a performance degree about a year ago, and am in the in between stage of having enough gigs/students to function and am working a full time job. I manage to get at least an hour of playing in a day, usually at least 2 and sometimes as much as 4. However, my endurance just isn't where it was when I was playing for 6+ hours every day. Does anyone have any advice on how to get my endurance up? or should I just accept it wont be where it was until I have time to pay as much as I did while in school?



Iīve found that the Roll Ins ad modum the BE method provides me with a very good endurance. Liptime in relation to endurance surprisingly limited.
Furthermore you definitively enhance high register. Even better if you combine with the Roll Outs - or best the complete BE method.
Me? Amateur on fairly good level since 1959. So Iīve had ample time testing different methods.
Also Iīve recently come across the Laurie Frink integrated warm up - here on the TH: https://docslide.us/documents/laurie-frink-an-integrated-warmup.html
Depending on the daily state of your chops choose one or several excercises.
Also the Belknap routine from Schlossberg: excercises: 14, 15, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, and 35.
Carry on!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 905

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iím finding the Belknap Schlossberg exercises above are having good results, along with the 19/30ís for warmup and relaxation. 3 weeks on Schlossberg has already made me stronger. To me thatís a very powerful result for a 40 minute routine. Took me a week to get thru them continuously without rest, but on only 23 days I was finishing them and after an hours rest was able to go at least 2 more hours on exercises and playing with SPotify/Sirious. At the advice of Lex on the forum, I also added the Cat Anderson 20 minute G routine at some point. I can only do about 10 minutes of this, but the feeling I get after a rest is wonderful and hi notes seem to pop afterwards. I dont play outside the house much yet, but this combo of dailyís is getting me itchy to do some performance. These work very well for me, hope you have the same experience!
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 5827
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Endurance is about coordination, energy, and lack of tension.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 905

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Endurance is about coordination, energy, and lack of tension.


I very much agree, but isnít that why you do thoughtful exercises - to build that coordination, energy, and lack of tension?

And I did take your excellent advice and get a highly qualified teacher, the local principal of the symphony (also a great commercial player) and his insights are saving me a lot of time and making me much more thoughtful in my work. Little things that Clarke and Schlossberg were trying to accomplish by exercises. Also communicating face to face and hearing the sound picture is an eye opener. I am pleased with him, and I think he enjoys teaching a more mature player, we are close to the same age and I feel we may become friends. I am now seeing the advantages of working with someone who has made all my mistakes and had all my confusion who has actually worked thru it all and can save me all those blind alleys and show me a more efficient route thru the maze.

I would even go farther that you did and say the 3 factors you mentioned are the be all of trumpet playing, not just endurance. Ive never heard anyone who mastered those 3 and not be an absolute monster.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 5827
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Endurance is about coordination, energy, and lack of tension.


I very much agree, but isnít that why you do thoughtful exercises - to build that coordination, energy, and lack of tension?

And I did take your excellent advice and get a highly qualified teacher, the local principal of the symphony (also a great commercial player) and his insights are saving me a lot of time and making me much more thoughtful in my work. Little things that Clarke and Schlossberg were trying to accomplish by exercises. Also communicating face to face and hearing the sound picture is an eye opener. I am pleased with him, and I think he enjoys teaching a more mature player, we are close to the same age and I feel we may become friends. I am now seeing the advantages of working with someone who has made all my mistakes and had all my confusion who has actually worked thru it all and can save me all those blind alleys and show me a more efficient route thru the maze.

I would even go farther that you did and say the 3 factors you mentioned are the be all of trumpet playing, not just endurance. Ive never heard anyone who mastered those 3 and not be an absolute monster.
Rod


Good for you.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Daniel Lombard
New Member


Joined: 26 Feb 2018
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everyone for the advice, ill be looking for that collection of schlossberg exercises. My current dailly routine is out of a Sachs book. On equipment, i was playing on a 1 1/2c for a long time, but just recently ive switch to a 14b4, i had been using that mouthpeice only on picc but ive recently had a good time using it on my Bb.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 673

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: maintaining endurance Reply with quote

I just messaged Daniel who started the topic on a YouTube I just watched last night at work, with Terry Everson instructor at Boston U. He talks about how he made it through his bachelor's and master's in performance and found that he didn't have the endurance he needed. It is an interesting 43 minute interview. There are obviously many different approaches and root causes to lack of endurance or ability to build it. It's just a super video. I've had a CD of Terry I bought at a used CD shop years ago that I like. He has got the chops and I know his reputation as a teacher. It's just an FYI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
brassmusician
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2016
Posts: 273

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is that the monster oil brass chat with Terry Everson you mean?
_________________
Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leesajohnson
New Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2018
Posts: 3
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before learning anything, you would like to develop a passion and time management for that subject. It will help you in a better career.
_________________
Orchestra Tutor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
digis10
Regular Member


Joined: 06 Mar 2018
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

playing too loud and with to much mp pressure can reduce endurance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pablopiccasso
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Jan 2014
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassmusician wrote:
I think it might be possible for you to change the type of practice you already do to get more bang for your buck. For example, Caruso, if you don't already do it, could greatly add to your endurance. The Schlossberg routine of David Belknap recently discussed here on TH could be another. Be a matter of experimenting to find what works the best. Maybe using the PETE device to do lip isometrics. Pop's range improvement book, the pyramid of high notes idea, could be another worth investigating. My personal take at the moment is playing higher and longer musical phrases. Of course it always pays to check the efficiency of your technique etc.


Does anyone know where I can find this David Belknap Schlossberg routine?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1187
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the original post from Dave Belknap:

Quote:
Employing the Max Schlossberg Daily Drills and Technical Studies For Trumpet, I play (every day, without fail) the following lip slur numbers for warmup and cool down:
14, 15, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, and 35. The rest period between each exercise should approximate the time that was required to play the preceding exercise. They are boring, time consuming and VERY EFFECTIVE!! They should be played in numerical order, exactly as written. I have been playing these same exercises in this exact order, for 60+ years. If I could find anything that is more interesting or more "fun" to play, that worked as well for me, I would have changed years ago. I have had "iron chops" since the age of nine, which I credit to the Schlossberg Studies, which I first received in hand written form, from Harry Freistadt, Mr. Schlossberg's son in law

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local 47 AF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gwood66
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 190
Location: South of Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a link to a page that has the routine with the instructions on how to play each exercise:

http://www.johnfreemantrumpet.com/schlossberg-slur-routine.html
_________________
Gary Wood (comeback player with no street cred)

GR 66M/66MS/66SZ
Bach Strad 37
Getzen 3052
Yamaha 6345
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jason Rogers
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Nov 2021
Posts: 14
Location: Salisbury, MD

PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Maintaining Endurance Reply with quote

Try using Charles S. Peters Total Range
This book helps you maintain technique for articulation and range as long as you practice properly. Practice playing your range---not "hitting" high notes!!
_________________
Martin Committee 1954
Benge
Bach Stradivarius
Schilke
Getzen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group