Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:32 pm Post subject: guiding younger trumpeters (progress/advice for first years)
I have two kids playing some trumpet and they both started during a Covid lockdown this summer. One is in band, but the other is not (plays violin too). They both have about six months and can play solidly to C on the staff, and sometimes up to e or f. The one in band is the stronger player (tone, range, endurance) but the sibling is probably stronger musically (rhythm, intonation). They're 5th graders and also have some piano background (not a lot, but can read music, etc.). Six months in I'm having them do some Christmas duets, practice school sheet music, and try out some exercises (lip slurs, long tones). Both kids practice 15-30 minutes several days/week + 2x band.
I have been seeing people share their own stories (which for professionals obviously skews towards starting out very strong--playing high C within a year, etc.).
That said, I'm especially curious from the band directors and individual teachers whether you have rough guidelines for first year, second year, etc. What do you suggest to help them improve? They hear me play and I show them lots of youtube videos and they enjoy trumpet (but not as much as video games).
I'm hoping this might be a thread where folk could share their experiences of starting/guiding beginner trumpeters.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:53 am Post subject:
In my youth, I was completely self-taught. In my 3rd year I could 8va melodies up to second leger line C during band but I was the only one of all my peers that could. I was also engraining terrible habits. As proud as I was of what I accomplished early on I really wish I had been steered into lessons much earlier.
I think for most players lessons with a suitable pro is the best way to maximize the likelihood they will develop a foundation that won't hold them back later. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
In my youth, I was completely self-taught. ... I really wish I had been steered into lessons much earlier.
I think for most players lessons with a suitable pro is the best way to maximize the likelihood they will develop a foundation that won't hold them back later.
School Band Directors, at least from my personal experience, have their hands full every day and can give at best, cursory attention to individual needs in most cases and auto-pilot for the student often delivers a less than desirable outcome.
If I could do it all over again for myself and my children, I would seek out the most reputable teacher available from the beginning, taking on chores, part time jobs, whatever, in order to pay for their time. I am certain that many of the mis-steps, back-peddling, and the frustrations of much trial and error could have been minimized or avoided altogether.
Best wishes,
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject:
They did a few lessons during the summer. It's really hard. I think in an ideal world I would get them some time with several players after their first year. I do think with beginners it's hard to tell what's normal effort to coordinate brain/eyes/lips/air and what is the beginning of bad habits.
With mine, one of them is overblowing (bleating?), but he generally has a good sound. The violinist is not spending as much time on trumpet and sounds almost as good, but sometimes double buzzes and struggles higher on the staff (C/D/E).
It sounds to me like many students are getting solid on the staff during the year. I have to be careful not to go too fast with my kids. I am trying to introduce the first method exercises, which seems to work well:
-Their band book has C and Bb scales, and I'll probably try to get them G/D this year
-First line of Colin lip flexibilities they can play
-The Arban's exercise where you play C-D-C-E-C-F-C-G etc was good for them, and the beginning half/whole note activities was hard (because of lip endurance)
We started the first Arban duet, which is also fairly simple. They can do the first line of that also.
I also do a lot of their school music with them. They're getting ready for the first concert (fifth grade band concerts are hilarious). My band player has the same problem I did, where it's hard for him to hear a different part than the part he is playing, but otherwise it's going pretty well.
It's still early, but if there was a very simple brass camp that covers middle school, I'd probably try to get them in that this summer. I think in that curve of "10,000 hours to mastery" you can probably make the first thousand hours go faster/easer/funner. That's kind of what I'm hoping to do. I'm not pushing much, but trying to make it a priority.
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:09 am Post subject:
Regular lessons are nice for kids because they have a role model and constant monitoring of their mistakes and encouragement to practice regularly. However, I don't think that kids can't progress with fewer lessons or a parent who can guide them in working on progressive pages of Arbans or Rubank or whatever.
What I do think is necessary is some oversight on their technique and embouchure formation and placement. IDK exactly what to tell you about that except that my embouchure troubles were solved in about eight hours of lessons over three or four sessions by a Reinhardt oriented teacher. This could be accomplished in just a few lessons with the right teacher. Are they placing their mpc in the right place for them instinctively, or not? Are they forming the right "say M and place the mpc" with a slight roll-in? Do they play with little pressure and know how to use lip to lip compression and some roll-in to ascend? Are they getting the idea of using tongue arch correctly? Are they using the right embouchure motion ("pivot") to ascend and descend? This doesn't take forever to figure out. Teachers like regular lessons because most need the income. It's only guys who have way too much to do who do mainly consults and can be completely OK with you just taking a few lessons whenever you feel the need.
What you might want to do is find some way to compare their progress with that of other kids their age with a similar amount of experience. I don't any experience with kids and trumpet to be able to tell you that after the first year range ought to be XYZ, etc. I'm sure a good teacher or an insightful band director could give you some of those guidelines. Maybe one of the teachers on here can chime in on that. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
What is typical progress for a fifth grader in their first year of trumpet?
What has helped young trumpeters progress in their first few years?
Here's something that's going to blow your mind.
These are elementary school kids around your kids' age. I doubt there's a high school concert band in my state that's this good. They're probably better than a lot of college ensembles.
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:16 am Post subject:
Playing by ear is interesting. One of mine really struggles with fingerings on anything (he's improved but still is much more likely to miss a whole section if he's struggling). He did recorder at school for two years and instead of learning musical notation, mostly learned fingerings off of the teacher and classmate. My tendency has been to see this as a flaw, but it could be a benefit.
Embouchure is challenging at this point. I think they're both pretty good, but there's a lot that they're really too new to explain/discuss. They have tight corners and do the "m" placement for their mouth, and we're working on tonguing. It's hard not to overwhelm them. We played a chunk of a Christmas duet tonight and it was really nice. I actually really like beginners.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:19 am Post subject:
HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
Playing by ear is interesting. One of mine really struggles with fingerings on anything (he's improved but still is much more likely to miss a whole section if he's struggling). He did recorder at school for two years and instead of learning musical notation, mostly learned fingerings off of the teacher and classmate. My tendency has been to see this as a flaw, but it could be a benefit.
Embouchure is challenging at this point. I think they're both pretty good, but there's a lot that they're really too new to explain/discuss. They have tight corners and do the "m" placement for their mouth, and we're working on tonguing. It's hard not to overwhelm them. We played a chunk of a Christmas duet tonight and it was really nice. I actually really like beginners.
Forget the fingers and embouchure. Focus on the sound and the fingers and embouchure will follow.
We learn to speak with no regard to the physical. Playing a musical instrument can be the same. _________________ Bill Bergren
Last edited by Billy B on Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1543 Location: Virginia USA
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:00 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
These are elementary school kids around your kids' age.
They have the advantage (and some disadvantage) of a very strict and real educational system that is concerned with results, core skills, and hard work. Because of the language memorization is a well developed skill and discipline is strong. They have real music programs in their schools. People who take up music or another pursuit, even a hobby, tend to focus on that and not be scattered all over the place. Very different from the US.
Some of this is unfortunately starting to break down in Japan, but it still holds for the most part. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
These are elementary school kids around your kids' age.
They have the advantage (and some disadvantage) of a very strict and real educational system that is concerned with results, core skills, and hard work. Because of the language memorization is a well developed skill and discipline is strong. They have real music programs in their schools. People who take up music or another pursuit, even a hobby, tend to focus on that and not be scattered all over the place. Very different from the US.
Some of this is unfortunately starting to break down in Japan, but it still holds for the most part.
The first time I saw that video I thought someone had overlaid the audio from a much more advanced ensemble. What I was hearing didn't seem to match what I was seeing based on what I'm used to hearing from public school ensembles - different universe. Intonation, dynamics, everything. If you gave them the advantage of retakes if things didn't quite go as well as they could and don't overwork them, those kids could record a movie soundtrack and I don't think anyone would be the wiser that it wasn't a pro ensemble.
Then I looked and saw group after group in Asia that are at this level. I doubt even most high school honors bands in the US are as tight as they are.
And the older kids are even more so.
I have a cousin who ran a top-ranked high school orchestra program that sounds amazing - same formula - they all study privately and work their butts off, have parents who are involved. And a highly competent director. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1543 Location: Virginia USA
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:26 am Post subject:
@robertp My wife grew up with music in the Japanese system. She also took private piano lessons. She and all her band friends from college are very competent musicians, none music majors. They were all taught a good sense of rhythm, pitch, musical concepts, anticipation, etc. all the skills necessary to play in a group like that. I played in a couple of bluegrass bands (banjo and vocals in Japan), and the musicians I worked with were among the most competent I have ever played with, very solid basic musical skills. Most Japanese students get a pretty firm foundation. But I agree the quality of this work is still surprising.
Helping with the college band in Japan was revealing. Basic musical skills were just assumed and everyone had them. No on the highest level, but still the basics were there.
In the US, where an elementary school music teacher (if there is one) get the students for 50 minutes every 10 days or 14 days, this is not going to happen unless the parents are getting their kids private lessons (as you suggest is necessary). _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: guiding younger trumpeters (progress/advice for first ye
HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
I have two kids playing some trumpet and they both started during a Covid lockdown this summer. One is in band, but the other is not (plays violin too). They both have about six months and can play solidly to C on the staff, and sometimes up to e or f. The one in band is the stronger player (tone, range, endurance) but the sibling is probably stronger musically (rhythm, intonation). They're 5th graders and also have some piano background (not a lot, but can read music, etc.). Six months in I'm having them do some Christmas duets, practice school sheet music, and try out some exercises (lip slurs, long tones). Both kids practice 15-30 minutes several days/week + 2x band.
I have been seeing people share their own stories (which for professionals obviously skews towards starting out very strong--playing high C within a year, etc.).
That said, I'm especially curious from the band directors and individual teachers whether you have rough guidelines for first year, second year, etc. What do you suggest to help them improve? They hear me play and I show them lots of youtube videos and they enjoy trumpet (but not as much as video games).
I'm hoping this might be a thread where folk could share their experiences of starting/guiding beginner trumpeters.
Band directors are in the unfortunate position of dealing with an administration that expects results. The trumpet is by far a more challenging instrument than the others. As such?
Our directors teach us to learn the lower register first. And of course this was the way that they were taught. Indeed a certain amount of students will succeed this way. Yet some 99% of them will have a serious limitation in the range. A ceiling in sound. As the direct result of this inferior teaching method.
This is excuseable if only because,
A. Directors don't know about the Stevens-Costello system that essentially guarantees that the student eventually learns the complete range on the instrument. And,
B. The director will find all of his woodwinds and most of the low brass improving just fine. This will be tempted to tell the young trumpets to blow lots of fat, loud, lower tones. Ruining their chances to develop the complete range.
It is easy to learn the lower register on the trumpet and this is the reason why it is taught. And in most other endeavors even including sports & athletics this "Evolutionary Approach" works well.
Unfortunately it usually fails for trumpet players who ought at least learn the correct physics of embouchure and then develop the extreme upper register first.
Perhaps this could be done in a school curriculum. However the system isn't well known. Let alone understood. So in the meantime the vast majority of students will be taught incorrectly and develop a serious stymie in their range. A condition often not correctable without a significant embouchure change.
Basically most of your teachers are instructing their students in how to play half their instrument. While this is certainly forgiveable in today's climate?
I hope that it changes. If the O/Ps kids become serious enough?
I urge them to both buy the
"Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique" (available at Colin Brass publishing)
And find a teacher of this system.
Not me at present although perhaps after the first of the year. I'm still going through the process of learning to teach the method and want to feel more secure in the methodology _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: guiding younger trumpeters (progress/advice for first ye
Lionel wrote:
Our directors teach us to learn the lower register first. And of course this was the way that they were taught. Indeed a certain amount of students will succeed this way. Yet some 99% of them will have a serious limitation in the range. A ceiling in sound. As the direct result of this inferior teaching method.
This is excuseable if only because,
A. Directors don't know about the Stevens-Costello system that essentially guarantees that the student eventually learns the complete range on the instrument. And,
B. The director will find all of his woodwinds and most of the low brass improving just fine. This will be tempted to tell the young trumpets to blow lots of fat, loud, lower tones. Ruining their chances to develop the complete range.
Who are some prominent players past or present who were started on SC as day one beginners? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject:
East Asia is kind of a side discussion, but living in the region, I would say:
-Many kids do piano and/or violin from age 5 on
-Most have teachers or group classes
-There's an emphasis on doing level certificates, which require theory, scales, and solo performance
-Music starts to phase out ~6th grade as kids gear up for middle/high school tests
-There are some dedicated music/arts high schools
-It's probably even harder to make a go of it as a performer
In Asia, it does seem like Japan has a pretty strong brass tradition, but China, Taiwan, HK, Korea don't seem as strong on it. It would not surprise me if marching/military/jazz/brass band influence brass's prominence culturally. Where we are there is little brass in local schools but some high level playing in symphonies and local pubs.
I think there's something to starting music at an earlier age. Almost all of the folk often mentioned here (Marsalis, Miles Davis, Chet, Harry James, etc) came from musician families and probably heard a lot of music growing up. I think that makes a difference. There are people who start in middle school with no background and do great, but they are rarer.
I'm not looking for any of my kids to be phenoms, but I do think that often if you start strong you have a better chance of continuing. The violinist may become a trumpet player, because they're only "good" on violin, but have classmates who started early and are amazing; on trumpet they'd be great.
For me, trumpet has been a surprisingly awesome midlife hobby, which really gets me out of my head and exposes me to new music. I'd like my kids to also love music and am grateful for the advice here.
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: guiding younger trumpeters (progress/advice for first ye
Robert P wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Our directors teach us to learn the lower register first. And of course this was the way that they were taught. Indeed a certain amount of students will succeed this way. Yet some 99% of them will have a serious limitation in the range. A ceiling in sound. As the direct result of this inferior teaching method.
This is excuseable if only because,
A. Directors don't know about the Stevens-Costello system that essentially guarantees that the student eventually learns the complete range on the instrument. And,
B. The director will find all of his woodwinds and most of the low brass improving just fine. This will be tempted to tell the young trumpets to blow lots of fat, loud, lower tones. Ruining their chances to develop the complete range.
Who are some prominent players past or present who were started on SC as day one beginners?
It's a good question and sadly many of them are dead. Phil Driscoll has credited the Stevens-Costello system for helping him. The late Don Ellis took lessons from Stevens. We also know that Lin Biviano checked in with Roy Stevens from time to time.
Then the most prominent one of course is the great Roy Roman. He who plays Maynard's "Ole" arrangement about as well as Maynard ever did back in '61. One of the few who've ever come close to duplicating Maynard's fantastic, rich upper register tone. It's on You Tube and sorry I can't paste links with this device. And while Roman's very much alive? I've been told in a phone conversation with Dr William Moriarty (editor of the Stevens-Costello editions) that Roy Roman has finally retired from playing.
Even as old as I am, I was not able to meet with Roy Stevens back in the 1970s when his office was backed up around the corner with students. I lived in New England back then and couldn't afford the trip down to NYC. Although Roy did return my letter of inquiry with a thoughtful response. However what we do know about the Stevens-Costello system is that most all of the great lead players use his embouchure whether they realize it or not.
They play this way naturally. And while I'm not the greatest fan of Donald Reinhardt's work? We do know that he considered the Stevens embouchure to be exactly like what he called his,
"Type IVA upstream embouchure". Reinhardt further opined that this is this easiest way to blow high notes. And it really is. No question of that. Although Reinhardt didn't like Stevens. Professional jealousy perhaps? Study the people in this business long enough and you'll find that not many of them get along very well with each other. I've even got people who greatly dislike me too. Al Cass was disliked too.
The best examples of the Stevens-Costello embouchure exist on cats like Jon Faddis, Bud Brisbois, Doc Severinsen, Cat Anderson. Also, Wynton certainly appears to put his chops together according to this method. And while he's never played many high notes the ones he does play seem effortless. As well as the rest of his register. This an indication that he's playing the Stevens system.
I can tell you for certain that from my own almost two years of experienc since changing over to Stevens-Costello that when it's working well? A Double C is easier than the High C was on my former limited embouchure. And I had pretty good range on my former chops too.
Again, these fellows discovered their embouchure just by nature. Lucky son's of guns! There exist certain trumpet players who will progress and develop the complete range in the trumpet simply through ordinary methods. Something that Roy Roman calls,
"The Evolutionary Method".
Basically starting out low and eventually adding more upper register notes as times goes by. I think that they can do this because in addition to accidentally setting their chops correctly their upper lip is just a little more elastic than most of us possess.
We also know that Maynard was friends with Roy Stevens. That he actually took his only son Bentley to study directly with Roy in New York. Bentley of course died tragically sometime in the early 1980s. Suicide I think but just such a terrible thing. Fell from a balcony in Santa Barbara, CA. The one thing I know as a father is that when my own son was learning the trumpet? I took him to the most noted and best possible teacher in our area. Any father would do this for his own child of course. As such Maynard's choice of Roy Stevens is about the highest honor that anyone could ever compliment a trumpet teacher with. As a reference that is..
If you need more examples of accomplished Stevens-Costello players you might consider contacting Dr Moriarty. For obvious reasons I can't post his number but he's retired too and living I think in the Midwest. During Bill's career he was President of the Musician's Union in NYC. And indeed he taught a good number of Roy Steven's students himself.
If you contact Allen Colin of "Colin Brass Publishing" he MIGHT be able to help you contact Dr Moriarty. Either that or he could tell you who studied with Roy back in the day. Allen is a fantastic resource and we're much indebted to him for publishing and making the excellent second edition of the Stevens System book available.
Incidentally: I own both the 2nd and a photocopy of the extremely rare 1st edition. That one is probably a little confusing and as such the beginner is probably better off reading from the newer 2bd edition. However that 2sr edition is fantastic. A moot point however. As the 1st edition hasn't been available for almost forty years. Got mine from a generous librarian at North Texas State music school. She sent me a pdf and my old buddy printed two copies and I got one.
Again: Excellent question. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:33 am Post subject: Re: guiding younger trumpeters (progress/advice for first ye
Quote:
Lionel wrote:
Who are some prominent players past or present who were started on SC as day one beginners?
It's a good question and sadly many of them are dead.
Again: Excellent question.
My interpretation of your original assertion is that developing the low register first is all bass-ackwards wrong and that S-C is the secret to circumventing this. Can you point to any references indicating S-C has been widely embraced in the world of brass pedagogy to start students from day one? Or widely embraced at universities and conservatories?
The people you list may have had some familiarity with it but you didn't name anyone who started S-C from the first day they played trumpet.
As far as Roy Roman's playing Ole that you regard as being on par with Maynard's rendition, are you referring to the video from '84 with a Latin band?
Doc Severinsen a S-C devotee? Can you provide any reference to Doc actually stating as such?
Quote:
A Double C is easier than the High C was on my former limited embouchure.
Where can we hear you playing on a S-C setup? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: Re: guiding younger trumpeters (progress/advice for first ye
Robert P wrote:
... Can you point to any references indicating S-C has been widely embraced in the world of brass pedagogy to start students from day one? Or widely embraced at universities and conservatories? ...
-------------------------
My view about this ...
I think a primary part of the 'core' of S-C is control and use of BOTH lips for mouthpiece placement and rim pressure, and the related control and use of the jaw.
It seems that the 'day one' student is mostly taught/guided to make some sort of reasonable sound of a written middle-C or in-the-staff-G. And those pitches are easily done without much concern regarding rim pressure or jaw usage. So the beginner then continues to learn higher and lower pitches, but still without good understanding or learning about the 'correct' aspects of lips, rim pressure, and jaw.
Then at some point the student's deficient embouchure technique reaches its limit and further progress is stopped. At that point a 'chop doc' might get involved and mention that the player has been doing it 'wrong' all along and needs to employ techniques similar to S-C.
And YES, a 'good teacher' should be capable of noticing and correcting
embouchure technique problems from the get-go.
How many of us have had that happen? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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