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Jaw04
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Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 900
Location: Bay Area, California
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 Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Boy have y'all been sucked in by the Monette marketing.
If it's about research and innovation, then there are mouthpieces half the price that actually do that.
"Research" in Monette speak just means that Mr. Monette did what every other mouthpiece maker has done. They cut some different designs, tried them, then passed the ones they liked to some other players to test and kept the favourites.
It's literally what Bach did 100 years ago. It's not innovation. If you want Innovation,. you'd want a mouthpiece where maths and acoustic science is involved, like GR, but they're half the price. No, I don't play one, I'm just saying. If you're looking for Innovation, you'd probably also buy a Wedge, they're actually doing something different there. Again, I don't play one, just saying.
If it was about innovation, they'd make their standard mouthpieces all available in Silver plate and charge appropriately less. They don't because the gold and the shape are branding like Gucci.
If it's about US companies, there are heaps that do also makes their own mouthpieces etc entirely in the US, as do Pickett Brass, GR, Wedge, Curry, Parke, James New etc.
If you want to buy something because it's pretty and is the trumpet version of buying a designed handbag then go for it. But don't pretend that you're doing it because it makes much of a difference to you ability to play the trumpet.
If their design was really that much better than everything else out there, then all of the top tier players would be using them. Almost none of them are. And I highly doubt it's because they haven't tried one.
The day Hakan, Helseth and Antonsen all switch to Monette is the day I'll be convinced that they're anything particularly special. (And yeah, Wynton sounded better on whatever he played beforehand the monette IMO).
There are a handful of players that sound great on a Monette, but they also sound pretty much identical and can play identically well on any other mouthpiece.
To each their own, but at least accept that you're being sucked in by the marketing and bling factor. |
Yeah I mean it's pretty obvious that most people that buy Monette are not professional players, just like most people that buy diving watches are not taking their Rolex diving. It is a luxury, boutique brand and there's nothing wrong with that.
I will say though, Monette's creations have been innovative and changed the game for a portion of the trumpet playing world. When his horns and mouthpieces came out they definitely don't play like other horns and mouthpieces, and it wasn't just because of the gold-plating. There have also been a lot of other manufacturers that have followed in his footsteps to some degrees. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yeah I mean it's pretty obvious that most people that buy Monette are not professional players, just like most people that buy diving watches are not taking their Rolex diving. It is a luxury, boutique brand and there's nothing wrong with that. |
Exactly - nothing wrong with buying luxury products if you have the cash to splash around. And I'm not saying they're bad, but just because something is more expensive doesn't make it objectively better. Just different. Different is fine.
Mr. Monette reminds me somewhat of Jerome Callet in his marketing. Every couple of years they come out and say "Yeah yeah, the old ones were okay, but this new design, yeah, this is life changing".
It's like certain older pop singers who finish one "Last tour" before retirement, only to start again on the next "Final tour".
Anyway, I think it's important to put it out there that for the majority of students, a Monette mouthpiece isn't going to help your playing any more than a suitable Bach, Yamaha or Schilke. For most students, a Monette will hide some playing problems, but you pay for it with poor endurance and compromised articulation. Also, many college-level players and below will learn to create the necessary resistance to play a monette by simply collapsing their embouchure into the cup. Something that can be hard to unlearn.
https://youtu.be/df2rvlO8mb0?t=32
| Quote: |
I will say though, Monette's creations have been innovative and changed the game for a portion of the trumpet playing world. When his horns and mouthpieces came out they definitely don't play like other horns and mouthpieces, andasn't just because of the gold-plating. There have also been a lot of other manufacturers that have followed in his footsteps to some degrees. |
There is nothing new under the sun. I sometimes think that if Mr. Monette just lives long enough, his designs will evolve full circle until he's back at a bach trumpet.  Dave's early and subsequent designs were not particularly innovative IMO, but they were influential.
All due respect to Monette and the team, their horns are superb work etc. They are skilled artisans. But it's not like they're the only ones on the planet that can build a good trumpet or mouthpiece. |
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Goby
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Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 650
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Your gripes about Monette pieces (collapsing lips into the cup, poor endurance and articulation) seem to be simply be gripes with large mouthpieces. Monette pieces reward a relaxed and even approach (as does any setup really), but they can really punish players who use excess tension. Switching to Monette a few years ago actually really helped my playing for this very reason. I don't play on them anymore, but I have a great respect for the artistry that goes into their design and execution. |
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Brassnose
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Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 2053
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture is pretty much spot on. I DID play Monette for about four years (and yes, I am an amateur player  ) and sold all of them because GR and Lotus and AR Resonance fit me better. One of the points is that I could never find the right Monette piece - the wacky descriptions on the site don’t help it.
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jpwol
Regular Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2018
Posts: 15
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:22 am Post subject: |
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I guess it's all about sensations.. for me GR was too 'closed' and I couldn't open the sound as I wanted, like Bach or Yamaha.
At the beginning I played Monette Classic mouthpieces and didn't like it at all, and feom the day I tried Prana it was the right one.
Now I play the Prana 1-1 series and it made my job really easier, as far as I keep playing it cool, relaxed and resonant. But this is for me, everyone will be different..
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Dayton
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Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 2037
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| I think it is great that there are so many mouthpiece options. I would say that for anyone thinking about a $415 mouthpiece they should also consider traveling to Portland for a mouthpiece fitting. The cost of travel plus one "right" mouthpiece might be less than buying several of them over a period of months -- as many players wind up doing -- to try to figure out which works best.... |
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Jimi Michiel
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Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 6
Location: Portland, Maine
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | Yeah I mean it's pretty obvious that most people that buy Monette are not professional players, just like most people that buy diving watches are not taking their Rolex diving. It is a luxury, boutique brand and there's nothing wrong with that. |
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm pretty sure most people who buy products from Yamaha, Bach, Adams, AR or any other trumpet equipment maker are not full-time professionals. Zooming out, most people who play the trumpet are not professional musicians, just as most people who own basketball shoes do not play in the NBA. Does that make Nike a luxury, boutique brand?
I played a theatre gig last night on my early-Chicago Monette Bb, which I bought used for significantly less than the list price of a new Yamaha Artist Model. I got my first Monette mouthpiece in 1998, a B2, and switched to a B1-2 in 2000. I haven't changed size since, but have upgraded to Prana, then Prana Slap, then Prana Resonance Slap. So, in 23 years, I have changed sizes once and owned a total of 5 mouthpieces for my Bb trumpet. I'm guessing I spent about $1,300 total on those. I sold the old ones after I upgraded, so I probably got about half of that back. So, $650 over 23 years and 0 hours spent trouble shooting back bores and throat sizes. I know not everyone has that experience, but as someone who used to play professionally full-time and now plays part time, this is money very well spent. Put another way—my job is to play the trumpet, and I'm very happy to pay talented, highly qualified professionals to figure out the equipment part so that I can focus on making music!
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Aspeyrer
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Joined: 18 Nov 2019
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jimi Michiel wrote: | | I'm very happy to pay talented, highly qualified professionals to figure out the equipment part so that I can focus on making music! |
With all due respect, you seem to be happy to pay someone that has figured out how to expertly market and advertise products. Unfortunately, this product isn’t any more figured out than the rest of the mouthpieces out there. His patents are readily available, give them a look and see. What you are paying for is marketing. And, if you’re happy to pay that, your choice needs no validation. |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1924
Location: WI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | | The only rumor I heard is the blank itself is something more complex.. so to really "get inside" one you might have to cut it up and analyze the metals. |
. . . or the positioning of the hollowed-out spots.  |
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austincustombrass
Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Simple solution...
If one doesn't like the price one does not have to purchase. I don't know why so many people care what someone else would pay for a widget.
YMMV,
T
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As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.
It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.
Cool Links here:
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Aspeyrer
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Joined: 18 Nov 2019
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| austincustombrass wrote: | Simple solution...
If one doesn't like the price one does not have to purchase. I don't know why so many people care what someone else would pay for a widget.
YMMV,
T |
Simple answer…
It’s detrimental to the industry. |
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austincustombrass
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Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 246
Location: Kansas City, MO
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Aspeyrer wrote: | | austincustombrass wrote: | Simple solution...
If one doesn't like the price one does not have to purchase. I don't know why so many people care what someone else would pay for a widget.
YMMV,
T |
Simple answer…
It’s detrimental to the industry. |
I disagree completely.
_________________
As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.
It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.
Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass |
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Aspeyrer
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Joined: 18 Nov 2019
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I’m open to having that discussion if you are;
Dave charging roughly 410X the cost of a mouthpiece seems a hard justification. Capitalism at its finest or worst depending on how you look at it.
In your honest opinion, what new developments has monette introduced to the trumpet/brass community? We can find numerous examples of all his developments that have been repeated throughout history.
What we can see and know is that he has consistently charged more and more for his products. He makes claims that contradict themselves and literally offers no proof for his claims. He drives up the price for other makers. Yet, I concede, his marketing strategies are quite good.
You asked why people care. Well, you cared enough to chime in with what you possibly perceived as a rhetorical question. I think you answered that part of your own question. |
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kevin_soda
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 558
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Boy have y'all been sucked in by the Monette marketing.
If it's about research and innovation, then there are mouthpieces half the price that actually do that.
"Research" in Monette speak just means that Mr. Monette did what every other mouthpiece maker has done. They cut some different designs, tried them, then passed the ones they liked to some other players to test and kept the favourites.
It's literally what Bach did 100 years ago. It's not innovation. If you want Innovation,. you'd want a mouthpiece where maths and acoustic science is involved, like GR, but they're half the price. No, I don't play one, I'm just saying. If you're looking for Innovation, you'd probably also buy a Wedge, they're actually doing something different there. Again, I don't play one, just saying.
If it was about innovation, they'd make their standard mouthpieces all available in Silver plate and charge appropriately less. They don't because the gold and the shape are branding like Gucci.
If it's about US companies, there are heaps that do also makes their own mouthpieces etc entirely in the US, as do Pickett Brass, GR, Wedge, Curry, Parke, James New etc.
If you want to buy something because it's pretty and is the trumpet version of buying a designed handbag then go for it. But don't pretend that you're doing it because it makes much of a difference to you ability to play the trumpet.
If their design was really that much better than everything else out there, then all of the top tier players would be using them. Almost none of them are. And I highly doubt it's because they haven't tried one.
The day Hakan, Helseth and Antonsen all switch to Monette is the day I'll be convinced that they're anything particularly special. (And yeah, Wynton sounded better on whatever he played beforehand the monette IMO).
There are a handful of players that sound great on a Monette, but they also sound pretty much identical and can play identically well on any other mouthpiece.
To each their own, but at least accept that you're being sucked in by the marketing and bling factor. |
This is a hilarious display of ignorance.
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kevin_soda
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 558
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Just so everyone knows, Monette doesn't recommend Prana or Unity to people unfamiliar with their products so why complain about the price or the marketing? These are designed and marketed specifically for players who will be able to understand the new features and benefits. I think the website makes pretty honest claims about how a Unity B2 compares to a Prana Resonance B2S3 in its performance. Personally, I don't need to know all the exact specifications because they have nothing to do with music. Also, I've experienced the various stages of Monette equipment and can attest to their evolution over time. "Research" isn't just math. You cannot have science without trial and error. Play testing by incredibly talented trumpet players is more important than drawing curvy lines on a computer and trying assert your understanding of acoustics into music. Besides, the performers don't know or care what makes the gear better, they only care if it IS better. The people testing these pieces don't change equipment every day so I think they know an improvement when they experience it. Honestly, there's so much silliness in this thread that it's ridiculous. You really don't need to poopoo something just because it doesn't suit you. If you can't justify the cost, that's totally fine, but it doesn't mean that the product isn't worth the money to someone else. If you don't spend thousands of hours of your life with your trumpet then, yeah, it won't matter to you.
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Trumpetingbynurture
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| austincustombrass wrote: | Simple solution...
If one doesn't like the price one does not have to purchase. I don't know why so many people care what someone else would pay for a widget.
YMMV,
T |
Hey Trent! For me, it's not about the $$. People can and will do what they want. For me, it's the marketing that I find a bit unethical. Monette comes out every few years with a new slightly modified design that apparently revolutionise the already revolutionary. And lots of students etc get sucked into thinking that having a monette is vital to their progress because of the marketing.
Also, the marketing materials tell people that if the mouthpiece doesn't work for you, it's your fault. It's because you have tension. It's pretty pernicious.
And as you can see, people's reason for why they think Monette are great is 'innovation' and that they're made in America. But Dave's not doing anything any other mouthpiece maker isn't doing. There is this perception that only Monette does R&D or something which is nonsense. Dave's uniqueness is that he is good at branding and marketing and knows how to make something look luxury. Which is fine. I have no issue at all with people buying luxury, I just don't like the nonsense about Monette being the only real innovator in the trumpet world. It's such baloney. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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This is a hilarious display of ignorance. |
Ah yes, an eloquent response designed to really contribute to the conversation. Thank you for your 2c but you'll need to save them for the new mouthpiece |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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In my limited experience with Monette it's pretty clear that there's something there there. What Dave does isn't just some random difference but something genuinely seems to make things easier/better for a subset of players. This I've witnessed first-hand a fair number of times. That these players are willing to pay a premium is not the result of them being duped or some other nefarious plot. For these players the benefits are clear and persistent.
Marketing will invariably involve some hyperbole. And sure some will spend big money for pieces that don't help them. But are we really supposed to bash Monette for that?
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Jaw04
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Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 900
Location: Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aspeyrer wrote: | | Jimi Michiel wrote: | | I'm very happy to pay talented, highly qualified professionals to figure out the equipment part so that I can focus on making music! |
With all due respect, you seem to be happy to pay someone that has figured out how to expertly market and advertise products. Unfortunately, this product isn’t any more figured out than the rest of the mouthpieces out there. His patents are readily available, give them a look and see. What you are paying for is marketing. And, if you’re happy to pay that, your choice needs no validation. |
Some people like certain things that cost more. People spend their money how they want for things they like. It doesn't mean they are rubes falling for some marketing ploy. I happen to like a certain brand of coffee and I pay a higher price for that. Sure, Folgers is fine, there's nothing wrong with it, it has caffeine in it, but I like my Peet's. People like Monette mouthpieces and are willing to pay more for it. It's not snake oil, they happen to like the mouthpieces and/or horns. |
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DH
Veteran Member
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | | And what is that $415 worth in 2021 dollars? |
I actually paid $275 which, from an online calculator, is $2,017.76 today |
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