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Optimizing Embouchure - What I didn't learn for 5 years


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steve0930
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:15 am    Post subject: Optimizing Embouchure - What I didn't learn for 5 years Reply with quote

Hello again Trumpet players.

Today I downloaded Bryan Davis' Diatonic Flow Studies from You Tube . Link below (voluntary contribution field when you download) What a super chap he is.

I asked him the question - what's the point of learning in 12 different keys - and part of his answer is that you are then ready for anything when playing with a group. I guess the same thinking is behind Flexus - Trumpet calisthenics for the modern improvisor - that you are more equipped to play any note you want to / or the score dictates.

I started the trumpet 5 years ago .- The first thing I bought was The Arban - but I didn't buy into it, just like I didn't get the idea for why 12 keys or Flexus dexterity.

It's only now - in the last week that I have started to realize that the better your ability to jump around the horn - to play in different keys / or in demanding / even absurd note patterns - the greater the probability you optimize / balance your embouchure. Hence the benefit of practising in keys / or mastering a succession of notes / you may never need in performance.

Jees 5 years to learn that - don't I feel stupid!

cheers Steve

PS I don't know if you're reading this Robert P, but today I was playing Exercise 9 page 22 Flexus (1 line of music above the staff) and the sound was coming out easier, more reasonant and with less effort than the music I had just been playing in the staff. High notes easier than low notes. It has taken me 5 years, 1 week and 1 day to get to this point - indeed I was not sure I ever would but I did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALSSHmaAg8&t=448s&ab_channel=BryanDavis-AirflowMusi
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Optimizing Embouchure - What I didn't learn for 5 years Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
... that the better your ability to jump around the horn - to play in different keys / or in demanding / even absurd note patterns - the greater the probability you optimize / balance your embouchure. Hence the benefit of practising in keys / or mastering a succession of notes / you may never need in performance. ...

------------------------------------------------------
I agree that being able to 'jump around', 'play in different keys', and be able to manage 'absurd note patterns' is a good method to use in the path of becoming a better player.

But it's questionable whether it does much to actually optimize or balance your embouchure. I think it is simply a method to extend the ability to
'see the written note - play the written note'.

And yes, that does teach you how to adjust your embouchure to achieve that functioning. Whether it results in any optimizing or balancing is secondary to the ability to DO the task.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are air flow studies in a different way than others. And they are good ones.
In the Cichowicz book, it is explained he discovered that most folks do not have "embouchure" problems per se. Vincent rarely had to correct a severely flawed embouchure as the real meat and potatoes of proper playing and a
strong embouchure is air flow and how to develop this major function.
When you do it right, you feel it. No deep analysis is going to make it happen.
There is no "trick" just proper movement of air. When air is a strong constant, the embouchure will do the rest.
To me, this is an excellent flow study and when done with proper air movement, keeps your mind on the sound of each note and allowing it to come out in proper context.
After spending all these years reading this website, I came to the conclusion long ago that many here simply don't bother to grasp posts from players/teachers who do understand air flow and try to point people in the right direction.
The OP seems to be on the right track.
R. Tomasek
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
These are air flow studies in a different way than others. And they are good ones.
In the Cichowicz book, it is explained he discovered that most folks do not have "embouchure" problems per se. Vincent rarely had to correct a severely flawed embouchure as the real meat and potatoes of proper playing and a
strong embouchure is air flow and how to develop this major function.
When you do it right, you feel it. No deep analysis is going to make it happen.
There is no "trick" just proper movement of air. When air is a strong constant, the embouchure will do the rest.
To me, this is an excellent flow study and when done with proper air movement, keeps your mind on the sound of each note and allowing it to come out in proper context.
After spending all these years reading this website, I came to the conclusion long ago that many here simply don't bother to grasp posts from players/teachers who do understand air flow and try to point people in the right direction.
The OP seems to be on the right track.
R. Tomasek


We can argue about how often this is true, but as you said, Cichowicz rarely had to correct seriously flawed embouchures. When people don't have a flawed embouchure, playing these exercises as prescribed will probably do the trick for many players, but repeating something fundamentally flawed doesn't make it better, just more deeply ingrained, and it's for those players that the "deep analysis" you're talking dismissively about is necessary, and rarely discussed. (Especially when most people have a knee-jerk reaction of insisting it must just be an air problem, and refusing to consider the possibility that that might not be it.)
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveA,
Apparently, you were not taught the way I was. Cichowicz and Herseth's influence is huge in Chicago and that is where I am from. I am a "grandstudent" of Cichowicz.

Unless the analysis is done by a very qualified individual, it can only confuse a troubled player even more so.

The best thing for an individual with problems is to try and find a truly good teacher to assist in these problems. That's not always easy to do.

R. Tomasek
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Especially when most people have a knee-jerk reaction of insisting it must just be an air problem, and refusing to consider the possibility that that might not be it.


EXACTLY.

Air flow is ONE element of the system and it is not the part that ALONE determines the quality of tone. Air pressure plus flow is the power required for sound and it can, and does, vary dramatically for dynamic changes. Other than that, there is NOTHING about air that replaces effective embouchure function. There is not one level of air pressure or flow that is inherently inferior within the range used to play tones.

Ineffective embouchure skill requires more air pressure and flow in general (inefficiency). What many claim is "correction" of their air is simply improvement of the embouchure function.

So called "flow studies" are simply slur exercises, and are no more air-flow studies as they are "steady pressure-studies" or "embouchure/valve-change studies.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
These are air flow studies in a different way than others. And they are good ones.
In the Cichowicz book, it is explained he discovered that most folks do not have "embouchure" problems per se. Vincent rarely had to correct a severely flawed embouchure as the real meat and potatoes of proper playing and a
strong embouchure is air flow and how to develop this major function.
When you do it right, you feel it. No deep analysis is going to make it happen.
There is no "trick" just proper movement of air. When air is a strong constant, the embouchure will do the rest.
To me, this is an excellent flow study and when done with proper air movement, keeps your mind on the sound of each note and allowing it to come out in proper context.
After spending all these years reading this website, I came to the conclusion long ago that many here simply don't bother to grasp posts from players/teachers who do understand air flow and try to point people in the right direction.
The OP seems to be on the right track.
R. Tomasek


90% mental---having a clear image of the sound, a calm mind, and the ability to focus your concentration
9% air--- the ability tp deliver the air in an energized, relaxed manner. Much the same as a martial artist delivering a blow
1% physical---an awareness, as opposed to focus, of the physical activity of playing the trumpet.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
These are air flow studies in a different way than others. And they are good ones.
In the Cichowicz book, it is explained he discovered that most folks do not have "embouchure" problems per se. Vincent rarely had to correct a severely flawed embouchure as the real meat and potatoes of proper playing and a
strong embouchure is air flow and how to develop this major function.
When you do it right, you feel it. No deep analysis is going to make it happen.
There is no "trick" just proper movement of air. When air is a strong constant, the embouchure will do the rest.
To me, this is an excellent flow study and when done with proper air movement, keeps your mind on the sound of each note and allowing it to come out in proper context.
After spending all these years reading this website, I came to the conclusion long ago that many here simply don't bother to grasp posts from players/teachers who do understand air flow and try to point people in the right direction.
The OP seems to be on the right track.
R. Tomasek


We can argue about how often this is true, but as you said, Cichowicz rarely had to correct seriously flawed embouchures. When people don't have a flawed embouchure, playing these exercises as prescribed will probably do the trick for many players, but repeating something fundamentally flawed doesn't make it better, just more deeply ingrained, and it's for those players that the "deep analysis" you're talking dismissively about is necessary, and rarely discussed. (Especially when most people have a knee-jerk reaction of insisting it must just be an air problem, and refusing to consider the possibility that that might not be it.)


In my teaching experience it is true about 90% of the time. I think Vincent and Bud probably had it right.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:

90% mental---having a clear image of the sound, a calm mind, and the ability to focus your concentration
9% air--- the ability tp deliver the air in an energized, relaxed manner. Much the same as a martial artist delivering a blow
1% physical---an awareness, as opposed to focus, of the physical activity of playing the trumpet.

I am a Fourth Degree Black Belt who has practiced in many styles of fighting arts, so let me address this analogy. I am not prone to micro-analyse things, deferring, rather, to a Martial Arts maxim. "Lead with the mind and the body will follow". I'm, in fact, rather impatient with the micro-emphasis of anything that we so often read.

Having said that, I know that, in the midst of making a technique more effective using that premise, taking a moment to analyse, isolate and show a solution to a trainee can be a light-bulb moment that is highly effective.

So, I see much internet micro-analysis of anything as an exercise by folks who can't see the forest for the trees. But all is not mental. Pause to analyse, demonstrate and correcting sometimes is necessary before we charge ahead.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Billy B wrote:

90% mental---having a clear image of the sound, a calm mind, and the ability to focus your concentration
9% air--- the ability tp deliver the air in an energized, relaxed manner. Much the same as a martial artist delivering a blow
1% physical---an awareness, as opposed to focus, of the physical activity of playing the trumpet.

I am a Fourth Degree Black Belt who has practiced in many styles of fighting arts, so let me address this analogy. I am not prone to micro-analyse things, deferring, rather, to a Martial Arts maxim. "Lead with the mind and the body will follow". I'm, in fact, rather impatient with the micro-emphasis of anything that we so often read.

Having said that, I know that, in the midst of making a technique more effective using that premise, taking a moment to analyse, isolate and show a solution to a trainee can be a light-bulb moment that is highly effective.

So, I see much internet micro-analysis of anything as an exercise by folks whp can't see the forest for the trees. But all is not mental. Pause to analyse, demonstrate and correcting sometimes is necessary before we charge ahead.


Absolutely. But it is the teacher who analyzes, demonstrates, and it is the student who charges ahead. At least until the student has that 4th degree blackbelt. 90% mental 9% air 1% physical
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Steve A wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
These are air flow studies in a different way than others. And they are good ones.
In the Cichowicz book, it is explained he discovered that most folks do not have "embouchure" problems per se. Vincent rarely had to correct a severely flawed embouchure as the real meat and potatoes of proper playing and a
strong embouchure is air flow and how to develop this major function.
When you do it right, you feel it. No deep analysis is going to make it happen.
There is no "trick" just proper movement of air. When air is a strong constant, the embouchure will do the rest.
To me, this is an excellent flow study and when done with proper air movement, keeps your mind on the sound of each note and allowing it to come out in proper context.
After spending all these years reading this website, I came to the conclusion long ago that many here simply don't bother to grasp posts from players/teachers who do understand air flow and try to point people in the right direction.
The OP seems to be on the right track.
R. Tomasek


We can argue about how often this is true, but as you said, Cichowicz rarely had to correct seriously flawed embouchures. When people don't have a flawed embouchure, playing these exercises as prescribed will probably do the trick for many players, but repeating something fundamentally flawed doesn't make it better, just more deeply ingrained, and it's for those players that the "deep analysis" you're talking dismissively about is necessary, and rarely discussed. (Especially when most people have a knee-jerk reaction of insisting it must just be an air problem, and refusing to consider the possibility that that might not be it.)


In my teaching experience it is true about 90% of the time. I think Vincent and Bud probably had it right.


Yes, I totally agree with that. But, the thing is, 10% of the trumpet population is still a significant amount. If 1 in every 10 people is being told, "just listen, use more air, and think of how Bud would have played it, then think of that again, and if in doubt repeat", when they actually need to be told something specific about their physical setup before the the other advice is going to do anything meaningful for them, we've got a lot of people who are wasting their time, effort, and money because of inadequate instruction.

I think the 90% is already getting all this input they need (and probably more), and I'd like to see a bit more informed discussion about what the 10% with embouchure challenges need to improve, especially in threads that are explicitly about embouchure improvement.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I think the 90% is already getting all this input they need (and probably more), and I'd like to see a bit more informed discussion about what the 10% with embouchure challenges need to improve, especially in threads that are explicitly about embouchure improvement."

I can change your embouchure simply by playing a certain sound and having you copy with no mention of set, feel, etc.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:


I can change your embouchure simply by playing a certain sound and having you copy with no mention of set, feel, etc.


I can see that this approach could work when people already had some experience of healthy playing but had gotten lost, or for a fairly small change when they didn't have serious issues, but I have a hard time believing that any serious and dedicated student could always listen and copy their way out of any problem, regardless of how serious the problems might be, or if they had ever played any other way. Is this really what you're suggesting?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
but I have a hard time believing that any serious and dedicated student could always listen and copy their way out of any problem, regardless of how serious the problems might be, ...

---------------------------------
A whole lot depends on the student's ability to fully COPY - not just 'try to copy' or 'sort of copy'.
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KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Billy B wrote:


I can change your embouchure simply by playing a certain sound and having you copy with no mention of set, feel, etc.


I can see that this approach could work when people already had some experience of healthy playing but had gotten lost, or for a fairly small change when they didn't have serious issues, but I have a hard time believing that any serious and dedicated student could always listen and copy their way out of any problem, regardless of how serious the problems might be, or if they had ever played any other way. Is this really what you're suggesting?


Actually this approach works best with beginners, but I have had no problem with students from beginners through advanced players once they believe in themselves. It's how we learn to talk. Organic and natural.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Steve A wrote:
but I have a hard time believing that any serious and dedicated student could always listen and copy their way out of any problem, regardless of how serious the problems might be, ...

---------------------------------
A whole lot depends on the student's ability to fully COPY - not just 'try to copy' or 'sort of copy'.


The teacher must teach them how.
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Noodly
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
"Lead with the mind and the body will follow".


Timothy Gallwey's "Inner Game of Tennis" as applied to trumpet playing. I have used his method in tennis and it does indeed work. Once you know how to hold the racquet, etc.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Steve A wrote:
Billy B wrote:


I can change your embouchure simply by playing a certain sound and having you copy with no mention of set, feel, etc.


I can see that this approach could work when people already had some experience of healthy playing but had gotten lost, or for a fairly small change when they didn't have serious issues, but I have a hard time believing that any serious and dedicated student could always listen and copy their way out of any problem, regardless of how serious the problems might be, or if they had ever played any other way. Is this really what you're suggesting?


Actually this approach works best with beginners, but I have had no problem with students from beginners through advanced players once they believe in themselves. It's how we learn to talk. Organic and natural.


Sure, I think that's probably a great approach for beginners, and likely serves most players quite well. But what would you do with someone who'd already been playing for a while and, despite hard and methodical work, had technical issues, like, say, having the lower lip tucked far under the top? That setup works to a degree, but is ultimately limiting for most people. If they'd always played that way, how would you guide them purely through sound to a different and unfamiliar physical setup? If the sound you're asking for is entirely outside their experience of how the trumpet plays, how do you get them to find it other than giving some carefully chosen physical instructions?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The teacher must teach them how.


But the vast majority of teachers teach how NOT.

Because they force the students to attempt play what is NOT a trumpet. Everything from lead-pipe to free buzzing. And when they achieve a forced sound they are told that they know how. When they know how not.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Steve A wrote:
Billy B wrote:


I can change your embouchure simply by playing a certain sound and having you copy with no mention of set, feel, etc.


I can see that this approach could work when people already had some experience of healthy playing but had gotten lost, or for a fairly small change when they didn't have serious issues, but I have a hard time believing that any serious and dedicated student could always listen and copy their way out of any problem, regardless of how serious the problems might be, or if they had ever played any other way. Is this really what you're suggesting?


Actually this approach works best with beginners, but I have had no problem with students from beginners through advanced players once they believe in themselves. It's how we learn to talk. Organic and natural.


Sure, I think that's probably a great approach for beginners, and likely serves most players quite well. But what would you do with someone who'd already been playing for a while and, despite hard and methodical work, had technical issues, like, say, having the lower lip tucked far under the top? That setup works to a degree, but is ultimately limiting for most people. If they'd always played that way, how would you guide them purely through sound to a different and unfamiliar physical setup? If the sound you're asking for is entirely outside their experience of how the trumpet plays, how do you get them to find it other than giving some carefully chosen physical instructions?


I already answered all these questions. If you don't want to believe it that's fine with me. Good luck.
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