View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Peck Time Regular Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2020 Posts: 18 Location: New Zealand
|
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:14 pm Post subject: Modern equivalent to a Bach Mercedes? |
|
|
I just picked up a 1970s Bach Mercedes Trumpet. Serial number in the low 80,000 range.
It has a two piece bell, two piece valve-casings, and a single brace on the lead pipe.
It really sounds great too.
What would be the closest modern equivalent?
Thanks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 649
|
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not sure about the Elkhart Mercedes, but the Mt Vernon Mercedes had a medium bore, #7 leadpipe, and #38 bell. You can still get the 38 bell from some parts suppliers (not sure if Bach sells them anymore). B&S made a bach 38 copy at one point in time for Malcolm McNab. I think you can still find them on the secondary market, but it might take some patience. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 685 Location: Texas South Plains
|
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It varied a lot back then. There were some Mercedes and Mercedes II (and Selmer Signet Soloist models) that had what appeared to be Strad valvesets (all ML 0.459" bore, in all my experience) and a few that looked like glorified Bundys. The ones that looked like Strads sounded 0retty much like really light Strads, with perhaps a tighter blow. Even some that looked like Bundys had solid nickel valves and played pretty well.
I have a Mercedes II trumpet and cornet serial #'s 500K and 600K, that look like Bundys, but with gold brass bells to fix up for grandkids. They do not play very much like Strads, but sound very good, very solid dark tone, and are built more like tanks than the Bundys I have worked with.
I would not worry about the 2 piece bell. Many great horns, even Monettes, are 2 piece bells. I am not sure what the current equivalent to the old Mercedes is, but the TR200 and some of the Omegas are about the same as the Mercedes, with 2 piece Strad bells (I have heard they use the 43 mandel) and a 7 equivalent lead pipe. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Probably a tr200. They're really nice trumpets, but expensive enough you might as well just buy a strad. I had a 25 year old one and really liked it. Also a two piece bell and somewhat heavy/solid feeling in the hand. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bach Omega would most likely be it or the omega stradivarius _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1825 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
It would be helpful if you could play your Mercedes against a stock 37bell 25 leadpipe Strad.
If they feel about the same then any Bach clone might work.
If you find that the Mercedes sounds darker and or seems to have less front end resistance you probably have the 38 bell with the #7 leadpipe.
If that's the case - no - I'm not aware of a current stock semi-pro trumpet that has similar specs. You would need a special order Strad.
You could order a #7 leadpipe on demo and try it with a standard Bach Strad with #37 bell. If that's close enough, than a #7 leadpipe transplant on a Getzen Capri or 700 might get you an affordable substitute.
The Mt. Vernon Mercedes was my first "real" trumpet. It served me well. For years I wondered why I did not like the professional model Strad. Then found out it was mainly the #25 leadpipe I didn't care for.
Oh - If you do have a 38/7 Mercedes - you might like the 18077 - 7 bell and 7 leadpipe. Not the same but I thought it to be a nice playing Bach. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 257
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The old Mercedes horns differed from the Stradivarius line due to absence of nickel slides, that cost far more to purchase and machine. A raw brass Mercedes and a raw brass Strad clearly display Bach's strategic use of nickel on the Strad.
Bach's training as mechanical engineer in Austria taught him all about the properties of different metals/alloys and allowed him to do only 1/ 4 of the normal mandatory military service requirement demanded of Austrian men. When WW1 started, Bach was performing in Britain and got arrested as an enemy combatant due to his Austrian citizenship; Bach fled from Britain to the United States by using false identity papers to purchase a one-way ticket aboard the Lusitania—what a great story! To further his knowledge of metallurgy, Bach melted down one of his favorite cornets to determine its metallic composition. Bach knew that nickel's brittle and hard nature conducts sound faster than brass: 2960m/s for Nickel versus 2120m/s for typical yellow naval brass (gold, red, vs pure copper variants of brass within 100m/s of naval brass).
So, Bach's strategic use of the far more expensive and hard-to-machine metal nickel on the Strad had everything to do with the horn's responsiveness versus an all-brass trumpet.
Hence, with respect to all the nickel Vincent Bach used to make the Strad special, I would say that the closest horns to the original full-brass Mercedes horns are actually 180LT and 180LR Strads that have full brass tubing and lack the Strad's nickel slides. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12657 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I seem to remember reading on here that some Mercedes were produced from leftover strad parts. My memory could be bad, or, if I am correctly remembering, the poster could be wrong.
As to the Mercedes II, I owned one back around 1972. It was a real dog. It could not be tuned and different fingerings were off by different amounts. This was confirmed by multiple players trying it out. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1825 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LittleRusty wrote: | I seem to remember reading on here that some Mercedes were produced from leftover strad parts. My memory could be bad, or, if I am correctly remembering, the poster could be wrong.
As to the Mercedes II, I owned one back around 1972. It was a real dog. It could not be tuned and different fingerings were off by different amounts. This was confirmed by multiple players trying it out. |
The Mercedes II's appear to be some variation to the Bundy trumpets. The Mt. Vernons were pretty nice. We're trying to figure out if the early 70's regular Mercedes has the same specifications - 38 bell and 7 leadpipe. They look the same except for the adjustable 3rd finger ring - on a reversed 3rd slide. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 649
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LittleRusty wrote: | I seem to remember reading on here that some Mercedes were produced from leftover strad parts. My memory could be bad, or, if I am correctly remembering, the poster could be wrong. |
yes and no. Bach dabbled with a few "less expensive" versions of his popular Stradivarius line with the Apollo, Mercedes, and Mercury lines. By the late NY and Mt Vernon period, the Mercedes was more-or-less one step below the Stradivarius. It used a valve block made by Bach, brass slides, a medium bore, and had one less brace on the 3rd slide, making it a lightweight instrument. I believe the Mercedes was marketed towards jazz and big band players, since the lightweight and smaller bore would make it easier to play on long gigs, plus give the player a little extra cut to their sound. It is technically "Strads parts" since everything was made by Bach and resembles the Stradivarius line, but the parts would not swap 1:1 with a Stradivarius of that time period due to the changes listed above. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Goldplate Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 152
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bach VBS 1S or TR200 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Peck Time Regular Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2020 Posts: 18 Location: New Zealand
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here’s some photos of my Mercedes.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12657 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Goby wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | I seem to remember reading on here that some Mercedes were produced from leftover strad parts. My memory could be bad, or, if I am correctly remembering, the poster could be wrong. |
yes and no. Bach dabbled with a few "less expensive" versions of his popular Stradivarius line with the Apollo, Mercedes, and Mercury lines. By the late NY and Mt Vernon period, the Mercedes was more-or-less one step below the Stradivarius. It used a valve block made by Bach, brass slides, a medium bore, and had one less brace on the 3rd slide, making it a lightweight instrument. I believe the Mercedes was marketed towards jazz and big band players, since the lightweight and smaller bore would make it easier to play on long gigs, plus give the player a little extra cut to their sound. It is technically "Strads parts" since everything was made by Bach and resembles the Stradivarius line, but the parts would not swap 1:1 with a Stradivarius of that time period due to the changes listed above. |
Ahhhh. Found it.
StevenPSparks wrote: | Hey Patrick,
I inquired of my good friend Roy Hempley (aka Selmer Bachologist) about Mercedes horns, and the following was his reply:
"By now I've reviewed all of the shop cards on Bach's Mercedes trumpets. I don't have the data aggregated yet, so about all I can do is give you some general ideas.
For most of his manufacturing career, Bach's Mercedes were his
middle-of-the-road instruments. Early on, the Mercedes line was a
place to use Stradivarius parts that didn't quite measure up to Stradivarius standards. For example, a blemished bell intended for a Stradivarius trumpet might end up on a Mercedes trumpet. When he changed components, say from the #6 bell to the #7 bell, the leftover #6 bells might be used on Mercedes trumpets. The same was true of mouthpipes. Eventually, the Mercedes came to have special components of their own. Bach used the one-piece #38 bell on his Stradivarius trumpets, but he used a two-piece version on his Mercedes trumpets. So you run into lots of Mercedes with
that bell. At Mt Vernon, he introduced a special bore size for the
Mercedes of 0.456 inches. At one point in a correspondence he called them "Strads in disguise". If you were lucky enough, you could get a Mercedes with all Stradivarius components at a reduced cost. The adornments were always plainer on the Mercedes trumpets. He didn't use as much nickel trim, and certain options were not offered. This was to hold down production costs.
As far as I know, however, all of the Mercedes used Bach-made two-piece valve casings indistinguishable from Stradivarius valve casings.
Still, the Mercedes were fine trumpets, and they remain a bargain today.
Hope this helps some. I'm continuing to gather data on the
Mercedes.
Maybe in the future I can get a clear handle on exactly when Bach
production concepts were changed. As of now, all anyone can do is look up the configuration of the individual instrument to see how it was made."
That sould clear things up a little bit, eh? If anyone has never read his writings on the Selmer Bach History site, it's well worth the time.
ps: I sure do love my Mt Vernon Mercury! |
Edit: This is the thread the quote is from. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|