Modern equivalent to a Bach Mercedes?

[Peck Time]

I just picked up a 1970s Bach Mercedes Trumpet. Serial number in the low 80,000 range.

It has a two piece bell, two piece valve-casings, and a single brace on the lead pipe.

It really sounds great too.

What would be the closest modern equivalent?

Thanks.

[Goby]

I'm not sure about the Elkhart Mercedes, but the Mt Vernon Mercedes had a medium bore, #7 leadpipe, and #38 bell. You can still get the 38 bell from some parts suppliers (not sure if Bach sells them anymore). B&S made a bach 38 copy at one point in time for Malcolm McNab. I think you can still find them on the secondary market, but it might take some patience.

[huntman10]

It varied a lot back then. There were some Mercedes and Mercedes II (and Selmer Signet Soloist models) that had what appeared to be Strad valvesets (all ML 0.459" bore, in all my experience) and a few that looked like glorified Bundys. The ones that looked like Strads sounded 0retty much like really light Strads, with perhaps a tighter blow. Even some that looked like Bundys had solid nickel valves and played pretty well.

I have a Mercedes II trumpet and cornet serial #'s 500K and 600K, that look like Bundys, but with gold brass bells to fix up for grandkids. They do not play very much like Strads, but sound very good, very solid dark tone, and are built more like tanks than the Bundys I have worked with.

I would not worry about the 2 piece bell. Many great horns, even Monettes, are 2 piece bells. I am not sure what the current equivalent to the old Mercedes is, but the TR200 and some of the Omegas are about the same as the Mercedes, with 2 piece Strad bells (I have heard they use the 43 mandel) and a 7 equivalent lead pipe.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Probably a tr200. They're really nice trumpets, but expensive enough you might as well just buy a strad. I had a 25 year old one and really liked it. Also a two piece bell and somewhat heavy/solid feeling in the hand.

[chef8489]

Bach Omega would most likely be it or the omega stradivarius
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Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger

[Andy Cooper]

It would be helpful if you could play your Mercedes against a stock 37bell 25 leadpipe Strad.

If they feel about the same then any Bach clone might work.

If you find that the Mercedes sounds darker and or seems to have less front end resistance you probably have the 38 bell with the #7 leadpipe.

If that's the case - no - I'm not aware of a current stock semi-pro trumpet that has similar specs. You would need a special order Strad.

You could order a #7 leadpipe on demo and try it with a standard Bach Strad with #37 bell. If that's close enough, than a #7 leadpipe transplant on a Getzen Capri or 700 might get you an affordable substitute.

The Mt. Vernon Mercedes was my first "real" trumpet. It served me well. For years I wondered why I did not like the professional model Strad. Then found out it was mainly the #25 leadpipe I didn't care for.

Oh - If you do have a 38/7 Mercedes - you might like the 18077 - 7 bell and 7 leadpipe. Not the same but I thought it to be a nice playing Bach.

[JWG]

The old Mercedes horns differed from the Stradivarius line due to absence of nickel slides, that cost far more to purchase and machine. A raw brass Mercedes and a raw brass Strad clearly display Bach's strategic use of nickel on the Strad.

Bach's training as mechanical engineer in Austria taught him all about the properties of different metals/alloys and allowed him to do only 1/ 4 of the normal mandatory military service requirement demanded of Austrian men. When WW1 started, Bach was performing in Britain and got arrested as an enemy combatant due to his Austrian citizenship; Bach fled from Britain to the United States by using false identity papers to purchase a one-way ticket aboard the Lusitania—what a great story! To further his knowledge of metallurgy, Bach melted down one of his favorite cornets to determine its metallic composition. Bach knew that nickel's brittle and hard nature conducts sound faster than brass: 2960m/s for Nickel versus 2120m/s for typical yellow naval brass (gold, red, vs pure copper variants of brass within 100m/s of naval brass).

So, Bach's strategic use of the far more expensive and hard-to-machine metal nickel on the Strad had everything to do with the horn's responsiveness versus an all-brass trumpet.

Hence, with respect to all the nickel Vincent Bach used to make the Strad special, I would say that the closest horns to the original full-brass Mercedes horns are actually 180LT and 180LR Strads that have full brass tubing and lack the Strad's nickel slides.
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[LittleRusty]

I seem to remember reading on here that some Mercedes were produced from leftover strad parts. My memory could be bad, or, if I am correctly remembering, the poster could be wrong.

As to the Mercedes II, I owned one back around 1972. It was a real dog. It could not be tuned and different fingerings were off by different amounts. This was confirmed by multiple players trying it out.

[Andy Cooper]

[Goby]

[Goldplate]

Bach VBS 1S or TR200

[Peck Time]

Here’s some photos of my Mercedes.

[LittleRusty]