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taylordiving
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Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn search Reply with quote

I've recently decided to take the plunge and get a flugelhorn which I would use mostly for doubling. My price range is $850-$1700 and the professional grade choices I'm finding (used of course) are Courtois or Couesnon, Yamaha 631 or 731, Getzen Eterna and Benge 3. I have no real idea what to go on and, given that I'm looking at used instruments there's really no shop I can go into to try them all out. Thus, I'm likely not going to be able to play test them first so my only real requirement (other than getting something that of course works properly!) would be that I want it to sound like a flugelhorn and not trumpety nor cornetty. Any suggestions/advice/input would be greatly appreciated!
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Last edited by taylordiving on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ancientram
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Joined: 06 Feb 2019
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Location: Fairborn OH USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:18 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn Search Reply with quote

I had a Getzen 4-valve Eterna for years. Its sound was big and all flugelhorn.

Steve
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taylordiving
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Posts: 66

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn Search Reply with quote

Ancientram wrote:
I had a Getzen 4-valve Eterna for years. Its sound was big and all flugelhorn.

Steve


Thank you Steve, did you find it much different to play than a standard 3 valve?
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CalicchioMan
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Joined: 31 May 2004
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn Reply with quote

I'd go with a Yamaha, several models to choose from.


Best,

Scott
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at Carol Brass, either one of their own labels (I had a 9990, nice fluegel) or the Manchester Brass branded model (nice all-rounder sold by ACB in theUSA and Fultone in the UK). I really like their sound profiles and the quality is good--boutique makers from all over use their valve blocks.

Depending on where you live you might be able to get one on approval from your country's dealer.

One word of caution no matter which horn you go with: the mouthpiece has as much to do with a fluegel sound as the horn does. All the makers you listed make very capable horns; do the one you pick justice by getting a great mouthpiece. I have good luck with Taylor, Wick, and Klier but the mouthpiece forum is your best stop there.
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huntman10
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned my 4 valve Getzen Eterna Flug for ... wow! 51 years come February. I have played it in a small variety of venues, including doing cello music on my Sr recital, for which its big sound was great. The old 896 4 valve is a 0.459" ML bore horn.

I have found the smaller bore flugs, like the Yamahas, Coutois, Couesnon, post Mt Vernon Bach,, in fact, most newer designs like the newer Getzens have a softer attack (my wife, who has been with me a week shorter than the Getzen flug calls it "feminine ") that is better IMHO for jazz and ballads than the larger bores. But that is not an absolute, and I have heard a lot of good jazz from the Getzens.

I would also consider the ACB Doubler, very much like the Yamaha 631G. I have one of those ACB's and have enjoyed it. Tough choices. I have used the Getzen playing Christmas ballads at church in the last few years, and was very well received.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
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Ancientram
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Joined: 06 Feb 2019
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Location: Fairborn OH USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Flugel Search Reply with quote

Taylordiving,

Never played a 3-valve, piston flugel. I used mine exclusively for church stuff, mostly around Christmas; never any jazz. Always got favorable comments.

Steve
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Subtropical and Subpar
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Joined: 22 May 2020
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shawnino wrote:
Take a look at Carol Brass, either one of their own labels (I had a 9990, nice fluegel) or the Manchester Brass branded model (nice all-rounder sold by ACB in theUSA and Fultone in the UK). I really like their sound profiles and the quality is good--boutique makers from all over use their valve blocks.

Depending on where you live you might be able to get one on approval from your country's dealer.

One word of caution no matter which horn you go with: the mouthpiece has as much to do with a fluegel sound as the horn does. All the makers you listed make very capable horns; do the one you pick justice by getting a great mouthpiece. I have good luck with Taylor, Wick, and Klier but the mouthpiece forum is your best stop there.


Seconded on the Manchester Brass flugel. And the service and knowledge at ACB are second to none.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as there is ACB discussion, I recently got an Adams F-1. Out of the price range you are aiming for, but as I was looking at Flugelhorns, I tried an Adams Sonic. It was very good and versatile.

You might check with ACB and see if they have a used one for sale.
https://youtu.be/7f6goZ2UjWk
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Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn


Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F1 is on the trombone-ish side of flugel things. I played one a while ago and found it to be a rather large horn. Nice ergonomics and playability. To me it seems (but I may be mistaken) that the larger, trombone-style flugels like Kanstul 1525, Adams F1 and F2 are more expensive than the Couesnon style smaller horns.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing a 4-valve Getzen Eterna since the late 1970s. It's a big horn, with a big bell, a larger bore, and a bit more weight (due to the 4th valve). It's a great horn with a lot of presence.

About 4 years ago, I purchased a 1969 Olds L-12 Flugelhorn, which has been my main player lately. It's a smaller horn, with a smaller bell and a smaller bore. It's also a very nice horn, and maybe a bit more nimble than the Getzen.

In your price range a used Gezten Eterna or Custom, a used Yamaha 631, a new CarolBrass, or a new ACB Doubler would all be reasonable choices. Other reasonable choices in your price range include a new Jupiter, used Conn V1, used Bach 183, and a few others.

For me personally, all Flugelhorns have some intonation challenges. But for me, I think the Couesnon and Benge flugelhorns are especially difficult to play in tune.

Mike
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Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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Location: WI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently acquired a Noblet flugelhorn, which is a stencil of an earlier Leblanc flugel, which is in turn a stencil of an earlier Courtois design (the generation before the "direct air" 154/155 series). They are all basically the same horn, and look like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313663030775?hash=item4907c605f7%3Ag%3AJbkAAOSwsrZhKYqH&nma=true&si=1jhvCWVj0yVWBKnnF6TAl62ZGWc%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

The only odd thing about them is that they use a very proprietary mouthpiece (longer/narrower shank than a standard French taper) and leadpipe. However, a shortened version of Charlie Melk's Couesnon replacement leadpipe fits just fine; I bought one of those so that I can use regular small Morse taper flugel pieces with the horn.

It has a lovely flugel tone and good intonation. The Noblet version is Mike Metheny's horn of choice; you can hear him play it on several YouTube videos.

Across all three brands, they crop up fairly frequently on eBay, and seem to go for under $1,000 unless they are in perfect like-new condition.


Last edited by Halflip on Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also own an ACB Doubler FLugel. I am new to Flugel playing but so far I am really happy with just about everything about the horn. The price is amazingly low.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
The F1 is on the trombone-ish side of flugel things. I played one a while ago and found it to be a rather large horn. Nice ergonomics and playability. To me it seems (but I may be mistaken) that the larger, trombone-style flugels like Kanstul 1525, Adams F1 and F2 are more expensive than the Couesnon style smaller horns.
I'm afraid I don't know what "trombonish" means, but I compared it with a Couesnon and it was almost the same results. Mouthpiece and attitude have a lot to do with it. That's the sound, playability may vary.

(I was going after an Art Farmer, To Sweden With Love sound.)
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn


Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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oljackboy
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Joined: 16 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha 631/731. Really nice horn, and if you decide to replace it you can get what you paid for it.
Whatever you decide on. make sure that your mouthpiece has the right taper!
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For just a bit more than you quoted you can get a new Adams Sonic.. an awesome Flugel.. get in touch with Trent Austin !!

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/brand-new-adams-sonic-flugelhorn-in-gold-lacquer/
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I'm afraid I don't know what "trombonish" means, but I compared it with a Couesnon and it was almost the same results. Mouthpiece and attitude have a lot to do with it. That's the sound, playability may vary.

I agree.

There are no "trombonish" or "trumpety" flugelhorns. But there are "trombonish" and "trumpety" flugelhorn players. Learn how to play it like a flugelhorn, and you'll get the sound you desire.

Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard to go wrong with any Yamaha. I'd recommend using a stock Yamaha mouthpiece until you get lined up on the horn then you can look wider to refine the sound.

Just to ask, is there a recording of the flugel sound you hope to emulate?
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austincustombrass
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You also might want to check out our Manchester Brass Pro flugel we offer:


https://www.austincustombrass.biz/manchester-brass-pro-flugelhorn-with-gold-brass-bell/

It's IMO a pretty significant upgrade over our super Popular Doubler flugel.

Of course you can always call us at 816-410-0826 anytime or email the shop at info@austincustombrass.com with any additional questions you might have.

Regards,

Trent
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As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.

It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.

Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was searching for a flugelhorn, I played a lot of them. I eventually bought a Taylor Standard that I really like and like the sound of, but I also found the old fashioned Yamahas the 631 in particular to be really solid. I prefer the Taylor (some say French) sound, but I do not think you can go wrong with the Yamaha and they can be found in your price range.
Have not played the ACB horns, but I have heard good things and ACB is top notch to deal with.
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