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Why lightweight body for Bach LR180 horns?



 
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HoosierBrass
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Why lightweight body for Bach LR180 horns? Reply with quote

Was there a specific reason why the LR180 version has a lightweight body (and regular weight bell) as opposed to the typical 180 standard weight body and bell? I know they have the LT version with lightweight body and bell. I was curious how/why it relates to the leadpipe design or why they decided to use the lightweight body for their LR180 horns?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Why lightweight body for Bach LR180 horns? Reply with quote

HoosierBrass wrote:
Was there a specific reason why the LR180 version has a lightweight body (and regular weight bell) as opposed to the typical 180 standard weight body and bell? I know they have the LT version with lightweight body and bell. I was curious how/why it relates to the leadpipe design or why they decided to use the lightweight body for their LR180 horns?

I'm second guessing them, but I think their aim was to make as light a horn as they could but in the process, didn't want to thin out the bell for tone reasons.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The combination reduces overall inertia so the horn speaks easier - improving endurance for some players and allowing greater security at soft dynamics - particularly with wider intervals. At the same time, the heavier bell prevents "breaking" of the tone at higher dynamics. (Of course when you tire, its also that much easier to miss the partial you were aiming for...)

Its a pretty good balance - regardless of leadpipe construction (case in point: Holton TM-2000 which is essentially the same horn only not reversed)
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giakara
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many pros in England prefers the standard weight horn with reverse leadpipe and water key on thirdslide , check the Bach strad 37 and 43 London model.

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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchool is correct. This concept was used in designing the Wild Thing line of trumpets and cornets. The valve section tubing was much thinner than Kanstul’s own products and it gave the Flip Oakes line its remarkable response and flexibility while still providing good slotting to the accomplished player.

The WT bell was originally spec’ed to be made from thin .018” brass sheet, but ended up needing heavier .022” stock to keep from collapsing during the buffing process. This “standard weight” bell meant the Wild Thing could perform solidly at any volume a player can generate.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s an interesting question: I always thought let’s take a standard or heavy body and a lightweight bell. That way you would transfer most of the energy to the bell and not lose it along the way. Looks like I was wrong - if I am not mistaken, the Bach Mariachi is using the concept described by the OP and seems to work well.

Thinking of it, my Bach is using the same concept, just one more step towards the heavy side: standard body, heavy bell - this would translate to lightweight body and standard bell if „translated into lighter weight“. Interesting.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://philparker.co.uk/product/vincent-bach-stradivarius-r180s43g-london-model-bb-trumpet-with-gold-brass-bell

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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

giakara wrote:
https://philparker.co.uk/product/vincent-bach-stradivarius-r180s43g-london-model-bb-trumpet-with-gold-brass-bell

Regards

I don’t understand what you are trying to communicate in this thread. The horns in both of your posts, standard weight, are the opposite of what the OP is asking about, lightweight body.

How does posting about standard weight horns relate to the question “Was there a specific reason why the LR180 version has a lightweight body?”

I am not trying to be confrontational, I just don’t get it.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably I didn't get well and I try to say that is a other oppion if he want it , I had try the London model and it was much better than the light body version of LR model , my English is poor and some times I make mistakes, sorry.

Regards
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
That’s an interesting question: I always thought let’s take a standard or heavy body and a lightweight bell. That way you would transfer most of the energy to the bell and not lose it along the way. Looks like I was wrong - if I am not mistaken, the Bach Mariachi is using the concept described by the OP and seems to work well.


Years ago a friend of mine tried to special order a Bach Strad trumpet with a standard-weight body and a lightweight 43 bell. This was before Internet commerce, not to mention the "Build a Bach" webtool, so he was working through a local dealer.

Bach wouldn't build it. My friend pressed the issue and ended up on the phone with someone at the Bach plant who said they wouldn't build that configuration because it wouldn't work.

I just played around with the "Build a Bach" tool and sure enough, you can't combine a standard-weight body with a 43* bell.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to go off topic since the OP asked about a lightweight body and regular weight bell, but for Bach to say a standard weight body and lightweight bell won't work runs counter to the various Mike Vax Model horns, which regardless of which company made them at the time. To the best of my knowledge, they were all based on a regular weight body and lightweight bell.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

giakara wrote:
Probably I didn't get well and I try to say that is a other oppion if he want it , I had try the London model and it was much better than the light body version of LR model , my English is poor and some times I make mistakes, sorry.

Regards

I did and do realize that you don’t speak English as your primary language. Hence why I was asking for clarification. Your English is much better than my non-existent Greek.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
Brassnose wrote:
That’s an interesting question: I always thought let’s take a standard or heavy body and a lightweight bell. That way you would transfer most of the energy to the bell and not lose it along the way. Looks like I was wrong - if I am not mistaken, the Bach Mariachi is using the concept described by the OP and seems to work well.


Years ago a friend of mine tried to special order a Bach Strad trumpet with a standard-weight body and a lightweight 43 bell. This was before Internet commerce, not to mention the "Build a Bach" webtool, so he was working through a local dealer.

Bach wouldn't build it. My friend pressed the issue and ended up on the phone with someone at the Bach plant who said they wouldn't build that configuration because it wouldn't work.

I just played around with the "Build a Bach" tool and sure enough, you can't combine a standard-weight body with a 43* bell.


well, that's just not true. I just went to build-a-Bach and configured a 180-43*. Beyond that, the modern standard body and lightweight bell is exactly what was standard before 1965.
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