• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Discouraged


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Comeback Players
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BarryWilson
Regular Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:29 am    Post subject: Discouraged Reply with quote

I'm an amateur who has been playing off and on for over 50 years (age 66). At about the age 60 I was able to find time to practice more and even started playing with a couple of groups. This led me to the point where I was playing the best of my life. I had better tone, better range, just about everything was better. But a few months ago I noticed a deterioration in my playing. My tone was not as good and the strides I had made in my upper register disappeared. Then I started getting an odd sound. Sometimes I get what sounds like a second buzz during a tone. It reminds me of those terrible wolf tones woodwind players sometimes get.

My practice regime is mostly fundamentals using books like "Daily Fundamentals for Trumpet" by Sachs. "Advanced Lip Flexibilities" by Colin, "Technical Studies" by Clarke, Allen Vizzutti's books 1 and 2. Obviously I can't do all this every day, but I go through a lot of it each week. And my daily (6 days) routine takes at least an hour.

Anybody got any suggestions? Or are my muscles just getting too old?
_________________
Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bethmike
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 192
Location: NW of ORD

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:22 am    Post subject: discouraged Reply with quote

I am close in age - 62 - and I need to be sure that I rest during my practice. Are you taking a few minutes off regularly during practice sessions? Are you breaking your practice into 2 or 3 sessions during the day?

Maybe mentally you're just not into it at the moment, and a week off will rejuvenate the motivation.

You'll find the answer!

Best,

Mike
_________________
Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
acritzer
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 827
Location: Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given your description is does wound like a bit of long term fatigue. Even if you aren't "playing hard" I think this can creep in over time. I would take 2-3 days off. A week is too long for me. But see what happens.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 1063
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well we all get old, Barry ( I am 85 back on the trumpet for 6 years now, after a 50 year hiatus ) and playing well does get tougher with age and yes, muscles in the chops aren't what they were when I played in my teens and thirties. My practice routine is 30 minutes of technical stuff every morning and 60 minutes of playing tunes every afternoon.

I play with a local community band with practice every Wednesday night for 90 to 120 minutes. Since I am one of four players playing first trumpet, some nights take a toll on my chops and I find it best to layoff playing the following day. After that I am good to go again, but my tone always suffers for a couple of days after a hard practice session.

For me, the only way I can get my tone back quickly is by doing about 10 minutes of long tones before playing ballads in the afternoon.

I don't know what to tell about your problem with range. I do a set of expanding scales up to high C every day as part of my morning routine and that helps me keep my range, which is E above the staff on a good day.

You may have to take another look at what you practice and come up with a more targeted approach. There are members here better qualified than me to give you advice and I am sure they will chime in.

Good luck and best wishes,
George
_________________
GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sustained note
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 643
Location: Givat Shmuel, Israel

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am 70 and an amateur trumpet player. At a rehearsal a few years ago, I could barely make a sound. I thought of quitting but was talked into sticking it out and taking private lessons which I took for 1 year. The teacher has indeed helped me with a few issues. I got to playing again in 2 community bands. I have been practicing at home, about 40-50 min daily. Started it according to Prof. Russel DeVuyst's basic routine:

Link

However, I have constantly been modifying this routine, to suit me personally, to suit my embouchure, my weak points.
I make sure to cover the essentials, to not overdo: high practice, exercise length, exercise difficulty and I rest a bit between exercises.
When I finish a practice routine I feel good and not overworked.
I have recently played in 3 concerts, better than I have for a long time.
I managed to overcome my playing crisis that I had a few years ago, this while dealing with a substantial left hand tremor (it's called essential tremor), by using the Ergobrass device and by shifting the trumpet support to my right hand.
Don't give up. You can make it work. As others have rightly suggested,
Do not overwork yourself in practice. Learn to not overdo the exercises.
_________________
Michael Greenberg

Giv'at Shmuel
Israel

Trumpet: Schilke B1 (2005)
Mouthpiece: Schilke Soloiste MG1
(Marc Geujon) gold plated
----------------

Keep a sense of humor.


Last edited by Sustained note on Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptptp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1408
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry you're having this trouble.
Make sure there isn't a mechanical problem with the horn, like a leaky water key cork, a hole somewhere, or dirty tubing.
Get an experienced player to evaluate you...May be something with your embouchure that's easy to fix.
Medications can affect lip flexibility. The slightest fluid retention can wreak havoc.
_________________
Craig Mitchell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
falado
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 933
Location: Eastern NC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Sorry you're having this trouble.
Make sure there isn't a mechanical problem with the horn, like a leaky water key cork, a hole somewhere, or dirty tubing.
Get an experienced player to evaluate you...May be something with your embouchure that's easy to fix.
Medications can affect lip flexibility. The slightest fluid retention can wreak havoc.


This happened with 2 different good players I've known and my uncle. In the first 2 cases their playing reduced in sound and range. The problem turned out to be lack of proper maintenance of their instruments. They had not cleaned or flushed their instruments in years and the gunk built up inside impeded the blow and nodal points of the horn.

When my uncle, who lived in NYC at the time, experienced similar problems I suggested he bring the horn to Josh Landress' shop for cleaning, PVA and evaluation. Yup, gunk in the horn and valves out of alignment. When he got the horn back his playing and sound were back.

Hopefully this is your problem, if not I hope you solve your chop problem.

Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are likely exhausting yourself daily with your "routine" and have chronic fatigue. You then add ever increasing efforts and the problem just spirals. This is a common issue among players of all ages because of their approach.

The first thing you must do is take a complete rest for days or even weeks depending on your level of fatigue or even injury.

Then get a better approach. There IS a better way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mafields627
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Nov 2001
Posts: 3774
Location: AL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you had a medication change, weight change, etc?
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1990
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a day or two off, then resume with a scaled-back routine for a few days -- 30-40 minutes vice an hour. Break up your practice into two sessions of 15-20 minutes each, and make sure you rest between exercises.

If you do this and notice improvements, your problems were likely the result of fatigue. You need to adjust your regular routine accordingly.

If you do not notice improvements, work with a teacher to help you figure out what is going on and how to address it. [Fatigue may still be the root cause, but you might have unconsciously made changes in how you play to try to compensate for the fatigue. Those changes can become problems in and of themselves.]

Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ecafdrib
Regular Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2021
Posts: 48
Location: Orlando, FL

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry,

I have only been playing trumpet for about 7 months. However, I have been playing piano and guitar for years. The trumpet is by far the most organic and almost reacts to my moods and state of mind and physical state.

It is a very difficult instrument to keep consistently good at. I have a friend who has been playing for years and even did work with some famous cats, like Ricky Martin and Ray Manzarek from The Doors. He once told me that all of a sudden he woke up and was not able to hit a certain high note that he could hit easily every other day. He did not know how or why this was happening. I was happy he took the time to tell me this, it helped me understand the organic nature of the trumpet. His solution to the problem encouraged me greatly.

He realized it was a temporary thing and just moved on to practice other things. Eventually it came back to him and he was fine. To this day he doesn't know why it happened, he only tells me, "I knew it was temporary and I just had to keep at it."

I hope this helps. When I sit down to play piano or guitar stuff like this never happens to me. But the trumpet almost tells me immediately what kind of day I am going to have. I think that is one reason why I like it so much.

Best of luck

~Arty
_________________
Trumpets are very much like jerks, they sound the best when they are muted.
______________________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C2LJ_M0q8&list=PLtEjClG65CHKqJWUHEkssH9uVS8wD6opd
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My best one-stop solution would be to find a pro player/teacher and take just one or a few lessons. They can check out your horn/mouthpiece and they can evaluate what's not working with your approach. It will be money well spent.

FWIW, the way you describe your tone problems I've only ever had when playing a mouthpiece that was too shallow for me. Sometimes it'd be fine then I'd get those horrible tones.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Uberopa
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 924
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I'm seventy and have some similar experiences. I was plagued by a double buzz for a long time. I finally took a look in the backbore of my mouthpiece. Pretty scruffy. Maybe a cleanout might help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sustained note
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 643
Location: Givat Shmuel, Israel

PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the double buzz, I had it in the past.
For myself, I became convinced that it happened when my aperture size and, for lack of a better term, muscle support, were not matching the tone range I was playing. For example, I would play low C to middle C with a clear and clean tone. Above it I would get a double buzz.
The aperture size of low C, middle G, middle C, E, G on the staff should all be different, proportionally. I was keeping it unchanged and that's why I would get a double buzz.
Nowadays as I go higher, my aperture gradually gets smaller and I support it more with the embouchure muscles.

I do not get a double buzz anymore.
_________________
Michael Greenberg

Giv'at Shmuel
Israel

Trumpet: Schilke B1 (2005)
Mouthpiece: Schilke Soloiste MG1
(Marc Geujon) gold plated
----------------

Keep a sense of humor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BarryWilson
Regular Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:44 am    Post subject: Thank You Reply with quote

Thank you to everyone who has written with suggestions. I always get good advice from people on this board. Here are some responses:

1. I had never thought about fluid retention, but I have had some med changes recently and those corresponded to an increase in getting up to urinate at night. Hmmm.

2. My horn is clean, so that's not a problem.

3. Valve alignment? I don't know if I can get that done anywhere near my home in South Carolina.

4. I do tend to break my practice up into a morning session and afternoon session. Glad to know that's a good way.

5. With Christmas gigs happening right now I can't take too much time off, but I'll definitely take a few days off this week in-between rehearsals.
_________________
Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1803
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Discouraged Reply with quote

BarryWilson wrote:
... But a few months ago I noticed a deterioration in my playing. My tone was not as good and the strides I had made in my upper register disappeared. Then I started getting an odd sound. Sometimes I get what sounds like a second buzz during a tone. It reminds me of those terrible wolf tones woodwind players sometimes get.

.... And my daily (6 days) routine takes at least an hour.


Did something change?

More performance gigs? Different types of performance? Dental changes? Back problems ? Medication changes? Are you using the same mouthpiece rim on your trumpet and Flugelhorn?

If you were practicing an hour a day and getting better - then you add more and more performance rehearsals and performances - and you are getting worse.- you might have a mismatch with your mouthpiece and trumpet.
I've had these problems with the wrong rim contour and too open a throat or backbore. Mainly the rim contour. You really need a teacher to help you sort it out.

For a quick fix - as others have mentioned - take a break. If you can't then consider not practicing on days you rehearse or perform. Just do a careful warmup and warm down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1459
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barry!
Read the post written by "Trollet" on Fundamentals!

Seems to me that you are experiencing some kind of the Over use syndrom;which might be caused by practicing too much; a not really functioning embouchure, maybe an invisible bleeding or what not.
I agree with Kalijah - maybe this is the moment to reconsider your regime?
The way back should be walked upon very carefully, always noticing the state of your lips; never trying to get the vibration going again by applying force.

And- remember: this most likely has happened to a lot of people - not the end of the world - cheer up and do it again but in a better way!
This I write because it´s all to easy to identify oneself with what comes out of the bell (the bell bottom blues...)
Been there felt that...
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3275
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Thank You Reply with quote

BarryWilson wrote:
...
3. Valve alignment? I don't know if I can get that done anywhere near my home in South Carolina. ...

--------------------------
My test for 'good enough for me' valve alignment is to compare the 'sound quality' of the various notes when using all the various valve combinations. And don't be overly concerned with the precise pitch of those notes - just their 'tone'. If some valve combinations are overly 'stuffy' while others are 'open' and 'ringing', then a good valve alignment might help.

My view is that the 'good valve alignment' requires a competent tech/player who can actually play and listen for the tone and 'sound production' of the notes, and adjust the alignment to provide the best overall results. Much more skill needed than just installing new pads to 'factory spec' !
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2410
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about this. Lots of interesting suggestions about equipment, your setup, hydration, and so on. But if we go with the odds, I agree with the suggestions that you're likely overplaying and abusing your chops. If this is true, you're not going to fix this problem by aligning your valves. Instead, you should back off your playing, put away the "heavy lifting" material, play some easy/lyrical music to get slowly get back in shape and heal the damage you've done. And if you need it, get some help to develop a more constructive practice routine.

Some suggestions for easy/lyrical of music I've used include Rubank Supplementary Studies for Trumpet, Concone Lyrical Studies, and the Arban songs or duets.

https://www.amazon.com/Supplementary-Studies-Trumpet-Educational-Library/dp/1423445236/

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.


Last edited by TrumpetMD on Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Thank You Reply with quote

BarryWilson wrote:
3. Valve alignment? I don't know if I can get that done anywhere near my home in South Carolina.

FWIW, I understand UPS, USPS, FedEx etc. work south of the Mason-Dixon Line.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Comeback Players All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group