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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1924
Location: WI
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 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| chef8489 wrote: | | I know the case needs work as well and wondering who can work on the case as well. |
It's pretty tough to find a 'case restorer'. A dry cleaner might be able to do some things. I took a case to a local luggage repair place once, and they did an 'okay' job -- they reupholstered the exterior of the case with expensive materials (actually less than ideal for an instrument case application), but glued everything rather than stitching it as was done originally.
You might try this place; I think I got the link from another post on this forum:
http://manningcustom.com/solutions/cases/
They seem to focus on woodwinds (they even build custom saxophones and clarinets, as well as custom cases for these instruments), but they say that they do case rebuilds and repairs as well, and I don't see why they couldn't do justice to a trumpet case in need of a rebuild. (DISCLAIMER: I haven't gotten around to trying them myself yet.) |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Yamahaguy wrote: | | chef8489 wrote: | | I want this horn the best possible to new as can be. I know the case needs work as well and wondering who can work on the case as well. |
You can't go wrong with Charlie...and check with your local dry cleaners-
one local business repaired the case latches and interior that was musty. |
The OP has expressed a desire to "get it in pretty much brand new condition" and "I want this horn the best possible to new as can be." If that means historically accurate, then maybe this is not a true statement.
I hesitate to say this, but in my opinion as a collector specifically, yes you can go wrong with Charlie Melk when it comes to restoration as opposed to renovation.
I agree that his refinishing work is the best I have ever seen, hands down. Factory clear coats don't come close. And in this regard, his work actually runs contrary to my point in that he manages to take so little metal off while stripping compared to most that the horn is better preserved than is typical in refinishing.
However, when it comes to the integrity of the design - having the horn play the way it did originally - Mr. Melk has a very heavy hand that can seriously alter the performance of many of the horns he works on. Cases in point would be lengthening the leadpipe and lower sleeve on Mt.Vernon Bachs (that are meant, for a functional reason, to have a longer slide pull), putting Bach leadpipes on mid-century Holtons (disrupting the relationship between leadpipe and bell tapers), and valve work that while often beneficial to the player as a tool, mis-represents the original condition.
If the goal is to be as good looking as possible, then by all means, you can't do better than Melk. For custom modification, he does top-tier work as well. But, if playing as it did when new is the goal, then you need to discuss in great detail exactly what will be done to the horn first.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Then where would you place Jim Becker's work in this context, Ron?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Then where would you place Jim Becker's work in this context, Ron? |
I have never seen a vintage restoration project by Jim Becker. His work on repairing and renovating fairly modern instruments (as well as customizations) is widely respected, and he certainly knows his ____, but I just have never seen or heard about anything he has done that would be restoration rather than renovation, so I don't really know.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kehaulani
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks.
I guess it's a matter of semantics. What's the dividing line between "restoration" and "renovation?".
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Thanks.
I guess it's a matter of semantics. What's the dividing line between "restoration" and "renovation?". |
optimizing authenticity vs optimizing present utility
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1924
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | The OP has expressed a desire to "get it in pretty much brand new condition" and "I want this horn the best possible to new as can be." If that means historically accurate . . . |
Yes, that's the question -- what does "best possible to new as can be" mean to the OP? If it means that anyone examining the horn would assume that it is a new instrument, that's one thing. If it means that a shop foreman from the original manufacturer could be fooled into thinking that it had just come off that manufacturer's production line, that's another.
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | However, when it comes to the integrity of the design - having the horn play the way it did originally - Mr. Melk has a very heavy hand that can seriously alter the performance of many of the horns he works on. Cases in point would be . . . valve work that while often beneficial to the player as a tool, mis-represents the original condition. |
In my experience with Mr. Melk, he does not make modifications such as you describe unilaterally or arbitrarily. If he thinks a horn might benefit in terms of playability by some alteration, he might recommend something to his customer. If the customer says "no", the customer's wishes are respected. The only variation on this scenario would be if parts to restore a horn to factory spec are unavailable and impossible to fabricate economically. In that case, Mr. Melk will suggest the best, most cost-effective alternatives to put a horn into good playing condition. The customer may still direct staying with the original parts for authenticity, but now we are moving into the realm of getting back a 'player' vs. a 'museum piece'.
When it comes to valve work that "mis-represents the original condition", I'm not sure what you are driving at. As far as I know, a valve rebuild is a valve rebuild -- it involves honing out the valve cylinders (which typically means that they are no longer factory spec), and redoing the pistons with nickel plating (whether they were originally nickel, monel, or stainless steel). I'm not aware of anyone who would demand that valves be restored to exact factory condition; if not well-nigh impossible, it would be prohibitively expensive (unless of course the horn is still in production; then I suppose new slightly oversized pistons could be ordered from the factory and fitted). However, as I said, I'm not sure what you're driving at here.
It should also be remembered that Mr. Melk's clients are often top pros who want the best possible tool above all else, and they in fact ask Mr. Melk to make non-standard improvements in their horns to that end. From what I hear, they are rarely dissatisfied.
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | . . . if playing as it did when new is the goal, then you need to discuss in great detail exactly what will be done to the horn first. |
I think that this is excellent advice no matter what your goal is or which restorer you choose. In fact, I always type up a very detailed work order to describe my wishes, and email it in advance to get an agreement that my instructions will be followed precisely. I also enclose a printed copy of that work order with the horn when I ship it. I make a particular point of stressing that I want any unexpected problems to be discussed with me first so that I can decide how I want them addressed (this can be a sticking point with some shops; they are, after all, commercial concerns, and left to their own devices will prefer to choose solutions that get a project out the door and the fee in their pockets as quickly as possible).
I can tell you that, based on my experience, Mr. Melk is a very intelligent and ethical man with good communication skills, and he will both understand and respect your wishes. If he can't do what you ask, he will tell you in advance (as long as you let him know what you are asking). |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | optimizing authenticity vs optimizing present utility |
From your discussion points and concerns regarding "optimizing authenticity", I get the impression that you seem to be aware of a "brass enthusiasts' subculture" where people are genuinely willing to pay what it would take to make a horn not only new-looking and playable, but also utterly authentic in the context of its original manufacture, and that such an investment is viewed as reasonable in a way analogous to the investment made in restoring vintage or classic cars to perfect function and authenticity for showing at a concours d'elegance like Pebble Beach.
If you know of such a coterie, I'd sincerely like to hear about it. |
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chef8489
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Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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So let me clarify. It is a 1965 cornet. It doesnt have to be 100% authentic. Id like it to be as close as possible with factory parts and look like new from the factory, but if there were parts that would help it play better like accept a modern cornet mouthpiece if it couldn't, then it be ok.
As for the case. The outside needs work. "The case also has a tear in it. Part of the tear can be seen at the bottom left front of the case. The leather has become detached running vertical, to the left of the visible tear. " If the inside is in pretty good condition I am not too worried about it. I am more worried about the cornet itself than the case.
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2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Halflip
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Ron.
I am already aware of some of these preservationists. I was looking more for examples of people who are paying for complete restorations of instruments to 'like new' that perfectly preserve authenticity as well.
In any case, it doesn't appear that the OP is one of those "people in that world of preserving historical authenticity for what those examples can impart to future researchers and academics". |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | I was looking more for examples of people who are paying for complete restorations of instruments to 'like new' that perfectly preserve authenticity as well. |
Well you are talking to one of them.... Many more are depicted in those links.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Halflip
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Well you are talking to one of them.... Many more are depicted in those links. |
Great! Who is your 'go-to' restorer? |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Well you are talking to one of them.... Many more are depicted in those links. |
Great! Who is your 'go-to' restorer? |
Robb Stewart
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Halflip
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Posts: 1924
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Halflip wrote: | | Who is your 'go-to' restorer? |
Robb Stewart |
Another spectacular talent in the very top tier of craftsmen worldwide. I have the honor of owning several of Robb's bespoke masterpieces. They are breathtakingly beautiful. The fact that he's cutting back on work and easing into retirement is the only thing keeping me from recommending him more frequently.
I could spend hours poring over his website (and have).
Last edited by Halflip on Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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chef8489
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. My next thing is to let payment clear for the Bach and try to get the cornet.ill be gone on Friday till after the first , so hopefully everything everything works out. I still don't feel this cornet is worth 850.00+ in current condition, so I'll try to get it for a bit less. I'd probably be a bit more comfortable around the 700.00 mark not knowing how the valves are. That put me around 2150 total after restoration cost.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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chef8489
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Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:20 am Post subject: |
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So I think the cheapest I can get the horn for is 800 plus 30 shipping. Is it worth that? Both Rich and Charlie Melk are about the same price. Around 1500 or so if the valves need to be redone and around 8-900 if not. I got 1600 for my bach 72, so that takes a huge chunk of the cost out. I offered 600 but seller offered 800 and I countered with 700 and will see what comes of it.
Got it for 755 after shipping.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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chef8489
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Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 858
Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:29 am Post subject: |
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I am away at my moms for the holidays, but a friend took delivery of the horn from ebay and took some pics. Can't wait to get home on the 8th to check it out, see condition, and try to play it before I send it off to restoration in Feb.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger
Last edited by chef8489 on Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| My recommendation is for Dan Oberloh in Seattle WA. Give him a call at +1 206-241-5767. Very knowledgeable about brass restoration, very kind and professional. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| The restoration/renovation is an interesting distinction. I have heard that basically every famous Stradivarius/Guarneri violin has gone through major changes to remain playable and be updated to modern norms (neck graft, new fingerboard, different type of strings, addition of chin and should rests, etc.). To me I would want the best playing instrument I could get in excellent cosmetic condition. |
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