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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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 Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | | The restoration/renovation is an interesting distinction. I have heard that basically every famous Stradivarius/Guarneri violin has gone through major changes to remain playable and be updated to modern norms (neck graft, new fingerboard, different type of strings, addition of chin and should rests, etc.). To me I would want the best playing instrument I could get in excellent cosmetic condition. |
Creating an authentic window into the past is very different from an optimal tool for the present. Major reworking of a vintage horn is quite expensive and at the end of the day, you will get a better performance tool by buying the product of newer technology - a modern instrument. (The trumpet may say Stradivarius on it, but unlike the violins, there are many many more, younger, and often therein better, ones out there)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 1021
Location: East Asia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]
Creating an authentic window into the past is very different from an optimal tool for the present. Major reworking of a vintage horn is quite expensive and at the end of the day, you will get a better performance tool by buying the product of newer technology - a modern instrument. (The trumpet may say Stradivarius on it, but unlike the violins, there are many many more, younger, and often therein better, ones out there)[/quote]
I don't disagree with you, but OP may want a playing horn. They're interested in a valve job, which says to me that they're not just looking for a showpiece.
I think the conventional wisdom is that because of low demand in the brass market it's essentially never *worth it* economically to restore an instrument. Almost everyone who is doing it is doing so either because they are a collector, they're sentimental (grandpa's trumpet, etc.), or they want *this horn* in optimal condition (symphony players, historical re-enactors, etc.).
I suppose among collectors, some prize aesthetics, some authenticity of restoration, and some want a playing instrument.
I have a 1920s liberty I quite like, and I enjoy playing it as is. If I were a liberty collector, I'd probably get some components replated. If it were my main trumpet, I'd be willing to pay for a valve job. Because I only paid $350 to start with, I would not want to put money into a full restoration, but I might happily swap out a leadpipe, tuning slide, etc., to keep it playing. |
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chef8489
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Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 857
Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | |
Creating an authentic window into the past is very different from an optimal tool for the present. Major reworking of a vintage horn is quite expensive and at the end of the day, you will get a better performance tool by buying the product of newer technology - a modern instrument. (The trumpet may say Stradivarius on it, but unlike the violins, there are many many more, younger, and often therein better, ones out there)[/quote]
I don't disagree with you, but OP may want a playing horn. They're interested in a valve job, which says to me that they're not just looking for a showpiece.
I think the conventional wisdom is that because of low demand in the brass market it's essentially never *worth it* economically to restore an instrument. Almost everyone who is doing it is doing so either because they are a collector, they're sentimental (grandpa's trumpet, etc.), or they want *this horn* in optimal condition (symphony players, historical re-enactors, etc.).
I suppose among collectors, some prize aesthetics, some authenticity of restoration, and some want a playing instrument.
I have a 1920s liberty I quite like, and I enjoy playing it as is. If I were a liberty collector, I'd probably get some components replated. If it were my main trumpet, I'd be willing to pay for a valve job. Because I only paid $350 to start with, I would not want to put money into a full restoration, but I might happily swap out a leadpipe, tuning slide, etc., to keep it playing.[/quote]
Well a 1965 Cornet fully restored would be quite playable as it is quite a modern horn. The replating of valves would be to bring it back to a new condition. These horns in new condition are amazing. The 60s horns accept modern cornet mouthpieces for the most part. I absolutely love my 1965 and my 1966 White King trumpets. I do want to play this horn and plan on playing it a lot as I do with my Silver Flair and my Super 20 trumpet.
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Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Yamahaguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3992
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Major reworking of a vintage horn is quite expensive and at the end of the day, you will get a better performance tool by buying the product of newer technology - a modern instrument. |
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. For example, I have a vintage Benge that was restored and it still outplays ANY modern horn I've tried of similar ilk (Adams, Bach Commercial, Yamaha LA, etc.)
No, it wasn't cheap but in comparison with new horn prices, it was definitely a bargain! YMMV... |
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Bronxgroove
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Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Tuck's Trumpet & Music Store
153 Maple Street
Glens Falls NY, 12801
TuckTellier@roadrunner.com
518-321-9288 |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Thanks.
I guess it's a matter of semantics. What's the dividing line between "restoration" and "renovation?". |
This brings up a longtime pet peeve of mine, the overuse of the term restoration in the context of brass instrument repair.
Years ago during my apprenticeship I was trained in refinishing student model trade ins so they could rented out again. Removing every dent, pit and scratch to bring back to "like new". We called this an overhaul in lacquer, but we did little to address things like worn valves. It's the equivalent of having Maaco repaint your vehicle but doing little else. Believe me when I say, I have a great respect for those that perform overhauls, it is a dirty business. It takes countless hours to turn out a quality job, oftentimes involving filing, sanding and buffing away material to improve appearances.
In my mind, restoration suggests much more than a body and fender + paint job. Rather, taking into account the mechanical wear of valves, slides and what not. Historic restorations, the kind performed by Robb Stewart, Dan Oberloh, Mark Metzler and the like involve reconstruction or replication of components from scratch.
Now add the language of museum curators into the mix, with instrument conservation or instrument preservation.
Over the past 45 years I've broadened my skill set to include fabrication and valve rebuilding. The needs of collectors and performers require greater understanding, not always practiced by overhaul shops. My go to approach is to perform mechanical restorations rather than cosmetic*. We still offer those as well, but rely on our partners to do the final finishing. Collectors and players are more concerned about playability and preservation. Leaving the original finish is preferred, where the focus is on correcting body damage and rebuilding valves.
Applying the term renovation is a new one in this context, to me suggesting some king of updating of the original design. I suppose that is appropriate when introducing say a leadpipe or tuning slide. You often hear the word conversion when referring to the original work by Bob Malone, which is more more along the lines of renovation.
*As in the episode of Antique Road Show on PBS, allow me to paraphrase. Mrs. Jones, your dresser is indeed a Chippendale, too bad it's been refinished. I'd also like to include references to the PBS series This Old House. The authentic methods employed in restoring historic properties also comes to mind vs. renovating with modern methods and materials.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1901
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | | Applying the term renovation is a new one in this context, to me suggesting some king of updating of the original design. I suppose that is appropriate when introducing say a leadpipe or tuning slide. You often hear the word conversion when referring to the original work by Bob Malone, which is more more along the lines of renovation. |
In the world of automobile enthusiasts, this is known as a "restomod".
| James Becker wrote: | My go to approach is to perform mechanical restorations rather than cosmetic*. We still offer those as well, but rely on our partners to do the final finishing. Collectors and players are more concerned about playability and preservation. Leaving the original finish is preferred, where the focus is on correcting body damage and rebuilding valves.
*As in the episode of Antique Road Show on PBS, allow me to paraphrase. Mrs. Jones, your dresser is indeed a Chippendale, too bad it's been refinished. |
I understand your point here, but unlike antique furniture (and with a few exceptions), brass instruments generally don't lose value when they've been given an expert mechanical and cosmetic restoration (at least that's been my experience). Perhaps the reverse is true in the rarefied world of "preservationists".
At any rate, thanks for bringing a professional's insights to this interesting discussion.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:02 am Post subject: |
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.....
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | I thought Chippendales were dancers. 
This just goes to show one how important good communication is. Some buzz words may mean one thing to one person, another thing to another person. So, it's very important not to assume that the other person and you are referring to the same thing if you use "shortcut", or "jargon" words. Communicate directly and have the other person repeat back their understanding of your directions. |
And Dressers are gilded-age servants who performed only a subset of the duties of a valet.
Sorry - couldn't resist variation on a theme
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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chef8489
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Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Well I just want my cornet as close to original as possible as well as playable. Ik there might need to be some things that may or may not have to be changed. I still have not had a chance to see the cornet yet, so no clue what condition it's in. I'll see it on the 8th when I go back to Asheville. I'll get to look at valves and get a better understanding of what might have to be done to it. Hopefully just cosmetic stuff.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | I understand your point here, but unlike antique furniture (and with a few exceptions), brass instruments generally don't lose value when they've been given an expert mechanical and cosmetic restoration (at least that's been my experience). Perhaps the reverse is true in the rarefied world of "preservationists".
At any rate, thanks for bringing a professional's insights to this interesting discussion. |
In the band instrument repair business, no serious practitioner would ever suggest refinishing a classic Paris Selmer Mark VI saxophone. Professional players recoil at the suggestion it would contribute to it's playability, and more than likely negatively change the playing qualities of the instrument forever.
For example, the work of Emilio Lyons, the legendary "Saxophone Doctor". talk about function over beauty. Dare I say, some of the finest playing saxophones are among the ugliest you will ever see. But players will tell you his work is among the finest in the business. Combining mechanical overhaul and preservation at the same time. For those that don't listen with their eyes....
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 857
Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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ote="James Becker"] | Halflip wrote: | I understand your point here, but unlike antique furniture (and with a few exceptions), brass instruments generally don't lose value when they've been given an expert mechanical and cosmetic restoration (at least that's been my experience). Perhaps the reverse is true in the rarefied world of "preservationists".
At any rate, thanks for bringing a professional's insights to this interesting discussion. |
In the band instrument repair business, no serious practitioner would ever suggest refinishing a classic Paris Selmer Mark VI saxophone. Professional players recoil at the suggestion it would contribute to it's playability, and more than likely negatively change the playing qualities of the instrument forever.
For example, the work of Emilio Lyons, the legendary "Saxophone Doctor". talk about function over beauty. Dare I say, some of the finest playing saxophones are among the ugliest you will ever see. But players will tell you his work is among the finest in the business. Combining mechanical overhaul and preservation at the same time. For those that don't listen with their eyes....[/quote]
Right but how different is that and a brass instrument? I'm planning on taking a 1965 king super 20 silver sonic master cornet and having it restored. Not just cosmetic mind yiu, but playing condition. I would like it to be as close to original as possible. It's not like I want to take a car and throw bonds and a coat of paint on it.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1901
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | In the band instrument repair business, no serious practitioner would ever suggest refinishing a classic Paris Selmer Mark VI saxophone. Professional players recoil at the suggestion it would contribute to it's playability, and more than likely negatively change the playing qualities of the instrument forever.
For example, the work of Emilio Lyons, the legendary "Saxophone Doctor". talk about function over beauty. Dare I say, some of the finest playing saxophones are among the ugliest you will ever see. But players will tell you his work is among the finest in the business. Combining mechanical overhaul and preservation at the same time. For those that don't listen with their eyes.... |
That's all fine. I don't see how it refutes what I recount as my personal experience, however. YMMV.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | I understand your point here, but unlike antique furniture (and with a few exceptions), brass instruments generally don't lose value when they've been given an expert mechanical and cosmetic restoration (at least that's been my experience). Perhaps the reverse is true in the rarefied world of "preservationists". |
There are technical and practical consideration that affect this.
Any time you buff a horn down, you will inevitably lose some mass. While I was seen as rough on Charlie Melk at the outset of this thread, I will reiterate that his refinishing work is the least invasive I have seen, minimizing this factor. Then comes the issue of the new finish. Both plating and lacquer finishes go on much thinner today. In the case of plating, you would have to go way way back for this to be significant, but in the case of lacquer, the impacts of both age and replacements are significant. Nitrocellulose lacquer dampened the instrument - it was thick and deadening. Designers sometimes factored this in, such as with the King Silvertones, Martin New Masters, and Holton Stratodynes. Even with Melk's light touch buffing, the new, harder, much thinner epoxy clear coat will not dampen in the same way. A new finish has to be carefully engineered including softening the epoxy and applying it thicker to mimic the original (I prefer to just pay for using the explosive real thing) - of course, the degraded original lacquer also did not affect the horn the way it should, so there is no option to retain original playability by not touching if the lacquer is badly worn.
This is just one of many many examples of how complicated this gets, and why sometimes if the original is functionally intact, the horn may benefit from less than optimal appearance as far as how it plays.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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For collectable instruments you want to keep, do what you feel is best for you. For those instruments you may want to sell later, think twice.
We've had many clients over the years with sentimental attachment to their instruments that want them to look new again and that's a perfectly reasonable request. As with many hobbyists, their motivation is to enjoy both the beauty and joy of playing their beloved instrument.
For professional players that play on vintage Bach, Benge, Besson, Martin, etcetera, I like to know their expectations down the road. I think of major repairs in terms of investing in extended usefulness. Pretty or not, it's playability takes precedence. At the same time without compromising resale value. Am I making sense?
If ebay sales history is any indication, the resale price of vintage will continue to climb.
For those of you wondering why all of a sudden I'm back on this forum, I'm home on temporary quarantine for the next few days hoping to get a negative test result by the end of the week...ugh!
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1901
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | This is just one of many many examples of how complicated this gets, and why sometimes if the original is functionally intact, the horn may benefit from less than optimal appearance as far as how it plays. |
And I agree with you! My statement only says that, in my personal experience, I haven't witnessed a case where a brass instrument has dropped precipitously in monetary value on the 'open market' due to an expert cosmetic restoration.
Perhaps this is the result of my 'circle' including too many of those philistines who "listen with their eyes". 
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Halflip
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Posts: 1901
Location: WI
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | | If ebay sales history is any indication, the resale price of vintage will continue to climb. |
Vintage in general (I agree), or "vintage preserved as opposed to vintage cosmetically restored"? Again, in my personal experience, I haven't witnessed a case where a brass instrument has dropped precipitously in monetary value on the 'open market' due to an expert cosmetic restoration.
| James Becker wrote: | | For those of you wondering why all of a sudden I'm back on this forum, I'm home on temporary quarantine for the next few days hoping to get a negative test result by the end of the week...ugh! |
I wish you all the best and a negative test ASAP.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3297
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| chef8489 wrote: | | ... I'm planning on taking a 1965 king super 20 silver sonic master cornet and having it restored. Not just cosmetic mind yiu, but playing condition. I would like it to be as close to original as possible. ... |
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My opinion ...
That instrument is unlikely to ever be viewed as historically important or valuable by anyone except a very few enthusiasts. So future resale (and whatever historical) value will be determined by how well it plays, its appearance, and functionality.
If it would make you happy to restore it as you describe, then go for it.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 857
Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | chef8489 wrote: | | ... I'm planning on taking a 1965 king super 20 silver sonic master cornet and having it restored. Not just cosmetic mind yiu, but playing condition. I would like it to be as close to original as possible. ... |
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My opinion ...
That instrument is unlikely to ever be viewed as historically important or valuable by anyone except a very few enthusiasts. So future resale (and whatever historical) value will be determined by how well it plays, its appearance, and functionality.
If it would make you happy to restore it as you describe, then go for it. |
That's exactly it. It's for my collection. For my playing and to match my horns. It's why I searched so hard for one with a trigger on 1st slide.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 857
Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | To answer the title question: in your part of the country the best is Rich Ita in Marrietta GA. ("Brass Instrument Workshop").
Silvertone and Silversonic master/Super-20 cornets over the last 2 years have been selling in a wide range from $700 to $1400. As some of the best were the last in my opinion, and the condition looks pretty good, I would say the price is not out of line.
The catalog does not mention the leadpipe material, and if it were available in sterling, one would think that would be promoted on the "options" list. As the lacquer is largely missing but the exposed metal is not black, I suspect the leadpipe is nickel or nickel plated brass. (Of course, its hard to tell from pictures) |
Rich says the cornet has a sterling silver leadpipe and not the nickle silver leadpipe.he got the horn yesterday and started on it. Now I get to wait 6-8 weeks for the restoration. I am excited for this.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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