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Martin Committee valve tops


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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:31 am    Post subject: Martin Committee valve tops Reply with quote

Hi all, I have an unusual question but thought I’d take a stab at it. I need 1 or 2 screw-on valve tops for a Martin Committee trumpet, hopefully for a Deluxe. I have a valve top with worn threads that pops off sometimes when I play. Does anyone either 1) have a spare top cap that I could buy, 2) have a horn in non-playable shape that they’d sell for parts or 3) know of anybody that may have spare Committee parts? In addition, I wonder if a cornet valve top would be the same size as a trumpet valve top. Just thought I’d ask-thanks :)
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't hear from somebody on this forum who has a spare cap to sell, you might try reaching out to the major nationally-known repair techs to see if they have or can find a spare (I am thinking of Josh Landress, Robb Stewart, Mark Metzler, Charlie Melk, or Rich Ita). Charlie was able to locate a Committee finger button for me when one was lost at a plating firm. Mark was able to do the same for a Conn 38A cornet that was missing a button when I bought it.

Another option might be to find a small-job machine shop that has hardened dies it can use to improve the definition of worn or galled threads on softer metals like brass. Again, the major brass techs might be able to refer you to a resource of this sort that has some familiarity with musical instruments.

From looking at photographs, I'm inclined to think that Committee cornet caps from the same era ought to have the same design and would likely fit (but I'm not 100% sure). Possibly the caps from other Martin models (Imperial, Indiana, etc.) would match; you would have to inspect close-up pictures to be sure.

As a worst case, you could probably have an exact copy machined from scratch for your horn, but that would be pretty expensive. If you aren't trying to achieve 100% originality, you could order a set of three matching custom caps from one of the aftermarket weighted cap firms. When I couldn't find a replacement bottom cap for my Conn 60B Super Connstellation, I reached out to Pickett Brass and ordered a matched set of bottom caps in their lightest weight. These worked out very nicely and look great, but of course will never be mistaken for original.
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response Halflip, I checked with Josh and Charlie-they don't have one. I'll check with the other shops. Everyone I talked to in regards to repairs wants to expand the top of the valve casing which I'd rather not do. For now I've been putting a bit of scotched tape in the threads and that holds it in place. Harrelson makes caps that will fit but look nothing like the originals. I'll keep looking...
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Ortiz wrote:
Everyone I talked to in regards to repairs wants to expand the top of the valve casing which I'd rather not do.

I don't blame you, but one other thought occurred to me -- what about brass-plating the valve cap after die cutting new threads into it? If the plating could be made heavy enough, it might tighten things up enough. One other option might also work -- machine a threaded ring that closely fits the valve cylinder threads, and then press fit the ring into the valve cap after grinding away the old bad cap threads.

There are lots of fabrication options, if you can find a good machine shop.

Good luck!
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"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My suggestion is to find a set of 3 workable valve caps, and use those (regardless of their style or authenticity).
Save those original valve caps without trying to modify or fix anything.

It sounds like the valve cap itself is worn - does a cap from another of the valves fit properly in place of the bad one?
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, if I take a cap from a different valve it stays on fine, so it's the cap. I'd like to keep it all stock of possible. The quick fix has been to put a piece of scotch tape on the thread-that holds it in place in the meantime. Waiting to hear from a couple people about a replacement part. If anyone has one or knows somebody who does I'm all ears :)
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know what the caps look like. If they are all metal, without the MOP, it might be possible to cut off and replace the threaded shaft. The button could then be polished and even refinished/plated. Or maybe braze on more material and recut the threads.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I don’t know what the caps look like. If they are all metal, without the MOP, it might be possible to cut off and replace the threaded shaft. The button could then be polished and even refinished/plated. Or maybe braze on more material and recut the threads.


I think the OP is talking about the cap, not the button. The cap is the part with the hole in it through which the valve stem goes. It's the part you unscrew when you want to pull the piston out of its casing.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
I don’t know what the caps look like. If they are all metal, without the MOP, it might be possible to cut off and replace the threaded shaft. The button could then be polished and even refinished/plated. Or maybe braze on more material and recut the threads.


I think the OP is talking about the cap, not the button. The cap is the part with the hole in it through which the valve stem goes. It's the part you unscrew when you want to pull the piston out of its casing.
I didn’t even consider that, even though it makes sense.

It should be easier to braze on some material to the cap than it would be to the button shaft. The cap could then be cleaned up on a lathe and single point threaded..
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI Bill, other Martins from that era have the same caps.......
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you replace the scotch tape with brass leaf foil (0.1 to 0.2 mm), conform it to thread and cold-weld together?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000453054438.html

https://interestingengineering.com/cold-welding-joining-metals-without-heat
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting idea etc.-I'll look into it.
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Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mendez, from pictures I see they don't match-the threads might work but they look different. Not sure about the Magna. The Imperials and Indianas don't match
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Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a 'next step' after using plastic tape, I'd try using thin aluminum duct tape (which really is used for sealing duct work). It's available at Home Depot, etc. - it cuts easily with scissors and sticks quite well.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much would you spend for a cap?
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Ortiz, I assume you have a tech. If that horn was on my bench I'm sure I could remedy the issue in 10 minutes. Take it to your tech.....
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Ortiz wrote:
Everyone I talked to in regards to repairs wants to expand the top of the valve casing which I'd rather not do.


I believe Mr. Ortiz indicated that he has spoken to techs.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the good advice everyone-fortunately I found a guy who has the part and has it in nickel-silver. Problem solved :)
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'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great news!

BTW, looking back at my second post, I see that I suggested brass-plating the cap. Given that this is for a Deluxe Committee, I should have said "nickel-plating". Happily, you achieved the best possible solution and can avoid trying to 'finesse' the bad cap.
_________________
"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent! This is much better than reconstruction of the deficient part.
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