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Replacement valve for 1890s King Cleveland 600?



 
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:40 am    Post subject: Replacement valve for 1890s King Cleveland 600? Reply with quote

Hello, I have been given what I think is an old King Cleveland 600. On the bell it says Besh-Ge-Toor, Cleveland Ohio. On the base of the second valve, the serial number is 4678, which I think could place it as old as the 1890s (but please do correct me if I am wrong as I am no expert). The second valve is in bad shape and needs replacing. Any advice on whether a replacement valve exists and where I might find one? If not, would it be worth making a custom replacement for an old horn like this? Since the second valve is leaking air, it is hard to get a sense of how the horn would play. Many thanks for any guidance.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spend some time at this website -

http://www.hnwhite.com/Cornet%20Page.htm

Do you find something that looks like your cornet? Check the Cleveland section too. The Cleveland's have a different serial number range.

If you spend a few months on e-Bay and shopgoodwill.com, you might find another cornet from that period with valves that could be made to work by a skilled repair person. There are a few people who could make one from scratch. Either way, you are looking at considerable expense.

If you just want a playable cornet, there are many on e-Bay for less than $200.
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much for your advice. It is a trumpet not a cornet. I did not see it on the HN White page but it was a very useful website for information, so thanks again for sharing that. I appreciate it.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm....

I doubt your instrument is from the 1890's. I believe the Cleveland Band Instrument company formed in 1919 and the HN White company, which eventually bought it some years later didn't start making instruments until other than mostly trombones and a few cornets and trumpets until after 1900.

http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial%20Numbers.htm

So, if it's a Cleveland then it's later than 1919. It's it's a King Cleveland it's later than 1925 when King bought Cleveland.

That doesn't fit with the Serial Numbers, but the model doesn't fit with the serial number years. I'd take a good look at that serial number again.

Finally, the King Cleveland 600 was a fairly common student model from the 1950's. You actually see it in the 1953 Catalog in on the HN White site. They eventually became the King Tempo 600 and then just the King 600 which was made for decades and decades, dropping the "Cleveland" name.

They're not as well known as the Olds Ambassador, but they're a similar horn, similarly durable, and fairly common given the age. It's the King version of the Bundy, basically - or the Holton Collegiate. They're all solid, venerable student horns from back in the day.

I'd have a tech look at your horn and valve. They might have something that works in the back bins. A replacement valve might be able to found off a cheap wreck on eBay or something too.

It's not a particularly valuable horn - in good condition it's probably worth $100-200 at the most. That doesn't mean you shouldn't get it fixed up or get it playing, a good playing horn from that era is better made than the cheap junk they sell on Amazon, now. Just don't expect to get a lot of value from fixing it up and selling it. Fixing it up and playing it is it's own value, so you can decide accordingly.
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much for your reply and advice. In fact, I really don't know if it is a King Cleveland 600 or not (I had heard a reference that it might be but I have no confirmation of that). The only markings on the horn are the name 'Besh-Ge-Toor Special' on the bell, and the serial number 4768 on the second valve. So I can't say for sure whether it is King or not. I did drop a note to the HN White website along with a photo to see if they knew anything about it.

My interest was not in reselling it but rather to see if I could find a replacement valve and if it were playable. I am also very curious to know if anyone knows anything about this name 'Besh-Ge-Toor', given there are no other markings on the instrument.

Thanks again for taking time to write.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joshua's Horn wrote:
Thanks very much for your reply and advice. In fact, I really don't know if it is a King Cleveland 600 or not (I had heard a reference that it might be but I have no confirmation of that). The only markings on the horn are the name 'Besh-Ge-Toor Special' on the bell, and the serial number 4768 on the second valve. So I can't say for sure whether it is King or not.

Well, you should post a link to photos on here and people will have opinions.

I have no idea having not seen anything, however....

Horns that don't have many markings are often stencil horns. Some were made in the US by various factories, but many were made abroad, especially in Eastern Europe.

Every King, Cleveland, HN White horn that I've ever seen had marking on it, serial numbers on the valve casings (the outside, not on the valve, though maybe something on the valve in addition) and said "King," "Cleveland," or "HN White" on the instrument along with possibly a model designation and some nice engraving.

Now, it's possible it's some much older HN White horn, or a stencil made by HN White. If it has a location marked somewhere, that gives it a good indication - if it's made in Elkhart, Indiana - for example, then that narrows it down to the factories in Elkhart. If it says Cleveland on there, somewhere, it's probably an HN White horn, as I think that was the only maker in Cleveland - but I'm not a brass history expert (though there are some on TH).
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much. Apologies for not posting an image as I just have some photos on my computer and I do not have them on a public website where I can post the URL. (I'll see if I can figure anything out - alternatively I am happy to email the images to anyone who is interested).

However, your information is already very useful. I think you are right that this is likely a stencil horn. It seems Besh-Ge-Toor may have been a music store (although again I am not sure). The serial number is on the valve casing (not the valve - my mistake). On the bell, it also says 'Cleveland, Ohio'. So would that indicate it was likely made by HN White/King, if they were the only manufacturers there?

Thanks.
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found that there was a music store called Besh-Ge-Toor Music House in Jamestown, NY. They opened in 1907 and were around at least until 1957 - not sure how much longer after that. So this trumpet could easily have been a stencil brand for that store. Maybe pre-war? Given that it is made in Cleveland, would that most likely have made it an HN White stencil?

Appreciate the patience of those on this forum. I am just learning about 'stencil brands'. The history is quite fascinating...
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joshua's Horn wrote:
I have found that there was a music store called Besh-Ge-Toor Music House in Jamestown, NY. They opened in 1907 and were around at least until 1957 - not sure how much longer after that. So this trumpet could easily have been a stencil brand for that store. Maybe pre-war? Given that it is made in Cleveland, would that most likely have made it an HN White stencil?

That's entirely possible.

Good sleuthing.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joshua's Horn wrote:
I have found that there was a music store called Besh-Ge-Toor Music House in Jamestown, NY. They opened in 1907 and were around at least until 1957 - not sure how much longer after that. So this trumpet could easily have been a stencil brand for that store. Maybe pre-war? Given that it is made in Cleveland, would that most likely have made it an HN White stencil?

Appreciate the patience of those on this forum. I am just learning about 'stencil brands'. The history is quite fascinating...


This could be "pre-Cleveland" by Sistek - the founder of Cleveland. Sistek had a "Special" cornet - perhaps a "Special" trumpet and trombone too.

https://brasshistory.net/Cleveland-Sistek%20Brass%20List.pdf
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goldplate wrote:
I know nothing about this trumpet, but an old listing for one at the Salvation Army has something pictures of it.

https://www.shopthesalvationarmy.com/Listing/Details/73687466/Vintage-BeshGeToor-Special-Trumpet-4678-W-Soft-Bag

Adding this post from another resurrected thread. This is the horn under discussion.
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for all the responses and ideas. And thanks sincerely to Little Rusty for posting the photo of the trumpet in this thread (I was struggling with how to do that).

Andy, if it were a 'pre-Cleveland' by Sistek, any idea of what age it might be?

Thanks again to everyone - I appreciate the help in trying to solve this mystery (and of course I'd love to find if there were a comparable model anywhere in case I could find a working 2nd valve).
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is not a Sistek. Pre-Cleveland Sistek horns were very similar to the original, non-student, Cleveland brand. Later Sistek Music horns were store stencils (Sistek Music was a Cleveland music store)

This is a pre-Cleveland Sistek


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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I finally found it. Ohio Band Instrument Company

https://contemporacorner.com/company/obic/

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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Andy! That is very interesting information. That sure looks like the same trumpet. Based on that information about the Ohio Band Instrument Company, would that put the Besh-ge-toor trumpet at somewhere between 1935 and 1950 in age? That would fit with the Besh-ge-toor music store which we know lasted at least from 1907 to 1957.

So if I could find a valve from a Regent trumpet of that vintage, it might possibly fit my horn?

Thanks again for the information!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That serial number would place the horn in early 1937 if made by OBIC. The original 36/37 Regent had the two big braces crossed in an X, though I did find a 1939 online with the parallel angular braces. It's always possible that detail started in 37, or that the generally accepted serial number list is too optimistic about early volume.

That's a tough one. Reynolds established the company on 1936, and sold it right after WWII, so you are looking for a parts horn from a 6 year window of start-up level production. Plus, the Regent changed design at least once in that window - though Reynolds was a valve guy, so those may have been unchanged.
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Joshua's Horn
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much. With that information I think it narrows down when it was actually made, so that is very helpful.

Sounds like finding the valve may be tough but I'll try and see if I come across one.

Really appreciate everyone sharing the history about it - I have really learned a lot!
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