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Incoming New Horn Search, focus on third valve and grip


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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:49 pm    Post subject: Incoming New Horn Search, focus on third valve and grip Reply with quote

Hello all,

I'll try to keep my request brief:
I'm intent on buying a new horn in the next month at TMEA. My mind is wide open to options. But I definitely know what I'm looking for in a horn.

One thing that I'm a little unsure on is I want is a comfortable third valve slide situation.
Currently, my horn has a non-adjustable ring to manipulate the slide with. The only way my grip naturally kicks the slide is by gripping it between my middle and ring finger. I know in theory I should use just the ring finger, but I simply don't have control over the slide to kick and retract the slide with just that finger.

When I squeeze the ring between my 3rd and 4th finger, it puts a lot of strain on my wrist, so I end up needing to shift my grip between a "pistol" grip, a traditional grip, and fully holding up the horn with my right hand and the left hand does nothing but manipulate the slide.
Each of these grips has disadvantages, which leads to me doing shifting based on what I need the horn to do.

Since I'm buying a new horn, now's the time to correct this silly situation.
The first solution that comes to mind is buying a horn with a trigger and a spring for the third valve slide, but I've never used a trumpet like that before, so I feel like I may overlook something important when selecting.

Does the hive mind have any input on this?
Thanks for reading!
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you're describing is not unusual. I find operating the 3rd slide inherently awkward no matter what grip I use. I can use it fine but it's not ergonomic. The third finger definitely is involved for me in pushing the slide out, and the 4th pulls it back in.

Two things are worth considering:

Try putting a ring rather than a hook on the first slide. You might find having the thumb support the instrument some helps.

And more importantly, try these:

https://www.trumpetgapper.com/

I have wanted some for a while now but they aren't sending overseas currently due to COVID so can't get any. But I put a rolled up tissue in my 3rd slide ring to fill out the gap, and it definitely helps with control and made it feel less awkward to control the slide. Worth's try!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I state the obvious? Why not have a tech move the third valve slide ring to where it's comfortable?

The placement of a third valve slide ring over tone color, flexibility and other horn characteristics is, to me, doing it all backwards.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Incoming New Horn Search, focus on third valve and grip Reply with quote

butxifxnot wrote:
Hello all,

The only way my grip naturally kicks the slide is by gripping it between my middle and ring finger. I know in theory I should use just the ring finger, but I simply don't have control over the slide to kick and retract the slide with just that finger.


Why is it bad to use your middle finger? I think many players do this.

If you want to try to buy a horn with a trigger, that sounds like a good idea also. I've never used one and always have been curious how they feel. What are you playing now? Any chance you get it altered?
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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Incoming New Horn Search, focus on third valve and grip Reply with quote

First of all, basically everyone's input is greatly appreciated. Each of these suggestions seems like they'd work and I hadn't considered a lot of them. This is why I love asking the community for input on this kinda thing, thank you all so far!

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
Why is it bad to use your middle finger? I think many players do this.

If you want to try to buy a horn with a trigger, that sounds like a good idea also. I've never used one and always have been curious how they feel. What are you playing now? Any chance you get it altered?

Using my middle finger is my most common grip, actually. When I use it, though, I can't kick as far as I'd like, and retracting the slide is awkward, unless I hold up my horn with more right hand than I would like.
If I'm playing lead, I never need the third valve slide so I do use that grip a majority of the time.

As to my horn, it's a strad 37 ML that's been customized. I don't want to invest any more into it though, it's on its way out. There's red rot in the crook of the bell.

kehualani wrote:
Can I state the obvious? Why not have a tech move the third valve slide ring to where it's comfortable?

Thank you for stating the obvious, I actually hadn't considered that this time around (maybe I have in the past, but a college kid can't really experiment with a permanent customization, so I've dismissed that option long ago.

But that's viable now that I'm older. I need to keep that in mind.
However the first thing that comes to mind is that basically all custom jobs leave residual markings or discoloring where it was altered. I can't imagine even the best of local technicians not leaving some discoloration where the ring has been moved from. I intend this to by the horn that lasts me the rest of my life, so I don't want to buy a new horn whose first requirement is that I alter it, you know?

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
What you're describing is not unusual. I find operating the 3rd slide inherently awkward no matter what grip I use. I can use it fine but it's not ergonomic. The third finger definitely is involved for me in pushing the slide out, and the 4th pulls it back in.

Two things are worth considering:

Try putting a ring rather than a hook on the first slide. You might find having the thumb support the instrument some helps.

And more importantly, try these:

https://www.trumpetgapper.com/

I have wanted some for a while now but they aren't sending overseas currently due to COVID so can't get any. But I put a rolled up tissue in my 3rd slide ring to fill out the gap, and it definitely helps with control and made it feel less awkward to control the slide. Worth's try!


Thank you for validating my experience. I've had basically no colleague who's struggled with this issue, including tendinitis, like I have.

I'll experiment with trumpets with 1st valve rings to see if that helps.
Also I'll look into the gapper, that's a very intriguing concept that seems to be something I should have tried a long time ago! Hell I can try to order one or a copycat maybe now even. Thanks for the suggestion!
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ring finger and index finger on my left hand were injured in a long ago auto accident that left limited mobility. I have used the 2 up 2 down grip since then with my middle finger as the slide connection. Retraction has also been a bit of a challenge for me as well. Enter the Gapper a few years ago. Slight learning curve, problem solved!

Mike
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a horn accumulator (if I said collector, it might imply some organization of my excesses, but I just accumulate them!) I like playing them all, and I have enormous hands (my ring size is 15) and arthritis in my hands. Many of the horn rings and saddles are REALLY tight. Stock Bach 1st slide thumb rings don't let the tip of my thumb in.

I have had several horns customized with larger rings and moved the 3rd slide ring out about 3/4 inch further out, as well as repositioning 1st slide saddles. I do notice the Bach Mt Vernon Bb's are more comfortable than the later Bachs. Of course, older took line horns like the Olds, Eternas. Conns, etc. have mobile ring which help. I love that wide Connstellation wrap.

I do have to use my middle digit on most of my unmodified fixed ring horns. I play Soprano cornet in our brass band, and mainly use a "death grip" with my middle finger 8n the ring, and the fingers crammed together Most short cornets just don't have space around the downward bow of the leadpipe for a 3rd slide finger ring position to move the slide.
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huntman10
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m contemplating driving down to San Antonio for TMEA myself.

I feel for you. I have had 3 horns my entire life, two with adjustable rings, one was a Getzen Doc model. No matter where the ring was at it never mattered, I was regulated to index wrapped around top of valve middle finger in ring and the others on the bottoms of the valves. Issue was that the wrap on the Getzen was so tight that my index and middle never really fit on top of each other no matter what I did. In the end I converted it to a fix ring anyways. My Schilke has more room but they still get crushed too much for comfort and I still have to use the middle finger on the ring.

If I make it down there, I know there are a couple of horns with wide wraps I would like to test like the Edwards x-13. If the sound is not right, then it’s a no. Besides, been holding the horn like this for decades and I’ll live.

You would think this is pretty common and wider wraps would be a more common thing by now.

Cursed with chubby fingers…

-marc
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a trigger on both first and third valve and using a lever instead of the ring? Much like the brass band cornets?

If looking for a horn with a wide wrap I will suggest the Edwards X-13, as you already mentioned. Great horn.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP writes in part: "However the first thing that comes to mind is that basically all custom jobs leave residual markings or discoloring where it was altered. I can't imagine even the best of local technicians not leaving some discoloration where the ring has been moved from. I intend this to by the horn that lasts me the rest of my life, so I don't want to buy a new horn whose first requirement is that I alter it, you know?"

...and with all due respect , no, I don't know. If this horn is going to last you a long time splash out a bit extra as need be and get it built or modified so that you have precisely what you want and need.

I've had best luck when I work directly with the builder (so far, Andy Taylor has been best--made me a fluegel for the right hand alone). They may already have a solution for your issue. If not, forward-thinking builders will be keen to craft you a solution because they'll then have it in the toolbox for the guy who walks through the door six months later.

Find someone who will make you exactly what you need. You will never regret it.
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently gave my really responsible and advanced 13 y/o grandson one of my Strads to replace his student model Bach. He was slightly disappointed that the slide device on the Strad wasn't adjustable like it was on his student horn.
I've always thought that it's odd that our more expensive horns are less convenient on this issue.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . and consider that, while the above is true, any competent tech should be able to move the ring.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't want to buy a new horn whose first requirement is that I alter it, you know?


Buy the horn that gives you the best possible sound and then have the finger rings adjusted and/or changed -- different size, thickness, angle, etc. -- to make it comfortable.

If the cosmetics really matter to you, once you figure out the right setup you could have M/K Drawing and Bending make up a new slide or slides for you with the right kind of ring in the right position.

Good luck!
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Incoming New Horn Search, focus on third valve and grip Reply with quote

butxifxnot wrote:

As to my horn, it's a strad 37 ML that's been customized. I don't want to invest any more into it though, it's on its way out. There's red rot in the crook of the bell.


That's a really unusual location for red rot. Could you post pictures?
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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbtj51 wrote:
The ring finger and index finger on my left hand were injured in a long ago auto accident that left limited mobility. I have used the 2 up 2 down grip since then with my middle finger as the slide connection. Retraction has also been a bit of a challenge for me as well. Enter the Gapper a few years ago. Slight learning curve, problem solved!

I've ordered one (hopefully the size is appropriate for my finger/horn) to experiment with I'm hopeful! It's an ingenious solution: economical, secure, solves the problem, and doesn't require a permanent customization.

nieuwguyski wrote:
That's a really unusual location for red rot. Could you post pictures?

I cannot, it's on the interior. I was informed of the rot some time ago by a respected repairman in the area. It's possible he was giving me salesman-speak to try to get me in buying mood on future horn purchases, but in general I don't think reputed repairmen will outright lie to sell to you.

That plus some of the other issues I have with the horn which would require sinking more customization $$$ to solve (tuning issues with 1st and 3rd valves: short story: I've had a private instructor years back who had me do a fantastic exercise where I mapped how well my horn is in tune on every single note, and he pointed out that every single note involving 3rd valve is flat, and I should consider having it shortened. It's partially because of this I've had to compensate by generally tuning sharp and leaning into the slot of most notes to tune them down. You didn't ask for that detail but I figured I'd share, sorry)

This horn has given me great times and great performances and great professional opportunities. But it's time to move on from my frankenhorn to a new horn.

Dayton wrote:
Buy the horn that gives you the best possible sound and then have the finger rings adjusted and/or changed -- different size, thickness, angle, etc. -- to make it comfortable.

If the cosmetics really matter to you, once you figure out the right setup you could have M/K Drawing and Bending make up a new slide or slides for you with the right kind of ring in the right position.

Agreed. This is a low priority on my checklist for sure. And thank you for the recommendation on future custom work on the slides! Hopefully Gapper solves my concerns around the 3rd valve slide but you know the rule: hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Shawnino wrote:
OP writes in part: "However the first thing that comes to mind is that basically all custom jobs leave residual markings or discoloring where it was altered. I can't imagine even the best of local technicians not leaving some discoloration where the ring has been moved from. I intend this to by the horn that lasts me the rest of my life, so I don't want to buy a new horn whose first requirement is that I alter it, you know?"

...and with all due respect , no, I don't know. If this horn is going to last you a long time splash out a bit extra as need be and get it built or modified so that you have precisely what you want and need.

I've had best luck when I work directly with the builder (so far, Andy Taylor has been best--made me a fluegel for the right hand alone). They may already have a solution for your issue. If not, forward-thinking builders will be keen to craft you a solution because they'll then have it in the toolbox for the guy who walks through the door six months later.

Find someone who will make you exactly what you need. You will never regret it.

1stly, I appreciate the suggestion to work with Taylor: I've heard excellent things about Taylor horns and the thought of building a horn for me personally is extremely intriguing. If I recall right, Taylor does bring a booth to TMEA and I'll certainly be talking to them.
I will say on the other hand, that I think your comment stands in support of my point that you quoted. You just recommended building a custom horn over buying a stock horn and customizing it. Haha. And yes, I do agree with that approach.

Notlem wrote:
I’m contemplating driving down to San Antonio for TMEA myself.
I feel for you. I have had 3 horns my entire life, two with adjustable rings, one was a Getzen Doc model. No matter where the ring was at it never mattered, I was regulated to index wrapped around top of valve middle finger in ring and the others on the bottoms of the valves. Issue was that the wrap on the Getzen was so tight that my index and middle never really fit on top of each other no matter what I did. In the end I converted it to a fix ring anyways. My Schilke has more room but they still get crushed too much for comfort and I still have to use the middle finger on the ring.
Cool! Yeah, you have the opposite problem I have, that seems actually a harder issue than mine. Good luck! Aint no better place to see what your options are than TMEA.

huntman10 wrote:
I do have to use my middle digit on most of my unmodified fixed ring horns. I play Soprano cornet in our brass band, and mainly use a "death grip" with my middle finger 8n the ring, and the fingers crammed together Most short cornets just don't have space around the downward bow of the leadpipe for a 3rd slide finger ring position to move the slide.
If my hands were a little larger, this would probably work for me as well: no tendinitis, greater control over the slide. I'm glad you're able to make them work!
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a personal choice expressed here.
I have never gotten along with third valve slides with rings, saddles or anything else. Well the last one was my Olds Ambassador with the adjustable ring. Most of the time I use the first valve slide to make the adjustments I need. After discovering how nice triggers are when I got a flugelhorn, I am planning to get triggers on any new trumpet I buy. Still contemplating whether I want to have triggers put on my other horns.
Moving the third valve slide ring to a more convenient position is certainly an option, but if I am going to go to that trouble, I might as well have a trigger installed. I worry about the effect on the sound, but it should not be too great.
Any takes on that problem?
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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(I'm also interested on thoughts on the previous post)
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had my thumb saddle moved. The discoloration is minimal and the horn is much more comfortable. And while I can appreciate the desire to leave it mint, it really is largely a tool, and making it right for you should easily be a higher priority. If it was a collector's item and I was concerned about resale I might think otherwise.
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding a trigger: Aren't they a little tricky to disassemble for cleaning? And, adding one may leave a mark.
Regarding repositioning a saddle or ring: It may leave a mark.

So, if I decide I need to do a modification which will leave a mark, why not put on an adjustable ring like the Bach student models have? That way, my left hand can adjust on a whim and feel pampered forever.
Other than the stigma of looking like a student horn, is there any down side to this?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't follow the cosmetics very closely, so I have a question. Do you folks mean that if a finer ring is moved and leaves a mark, that the mark can't be touched up and relacquered?
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