• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Amado Waterkeys


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 897
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:15 pm    Post subject: Amado Waterkeys Reply with quote

My current horn has amado water keys and I've had it for about 2 years now. I am finding some things I don't enjoy about them and wanted to let others know.

1. When I go to empty the main tuning slide, I'm blowing and blowing, and water still comes out. They don't really empty completely or efficiently. Also a little bit more messy.

2. If they get stuck or dirty, they are difficult to disassemble for a non-repairman.

3. Recently I noticed my horn seemed a little stuffy, like a valve was misaligned or there was an airleak. I looked at the waterkeys and visually they were sealed, opened and closed, and seemed fine. I ended up cleaning the whole horn (which I need to do) because I figured maybe something was building up in there.
Turns out the waterkey was in fact just slightly out of position after all, and while it visually seemed to seal, it was leaking.

I think I'd rather have traditional waterkeys and just replace the corks occasionally.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8964
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like Amados. I got M/K Drawing & Bending to make me a slide with a conventional water key.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been quite a few discussions on TH about Amado water keys. Many really dislike them, as you do.

A couple of things to consider on your challenges getting all the water out. Emptying the water works best when the spout on the key is vertically oriented. Also blowing lightly works better than blowing hard. Overblowing tends to blow the water past the opening.

You might also inspect the slide to ensure there aren’t any burrs or solder blobs blocking the water.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1990
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dislike Amado-style water keys for all of the reasons you've listed. I had one fly apart on me just before I headed on stage for a performance. You can quickly jury-rig a fix for just about any problem with a lever-style water key.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: Clarksville, Tn

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had amado water keys on some of my horns for years. I coat the piston with STP Oil Treatment. Never had any problems. Sometimes you might need to run a wire through the open water key to push out gunk.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shifty
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2013
Posts: 248
Location: Phoenix AZ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bump a post I made a few years ago and add some commentary. The previously quoted prices have gone up a bit, but still aren't bad.

Folks talk about the problem being that Amados need lubrication. I find that the one on my third valve slide is self-lubricating from valve oil and never needs cleaning outside of the cleaning the horn gets. The one on the tuning slide will get sticky/stuck whether I lubricate it or not because my saliva is like library paste. I need to clean dried saliva off my mouthpiece rim after every session.

There's really no excuse for claiming that cleaning an Amado is too hard, or that it's too easy to lose parts. With the right tools (and spare parts if needed) it's easier than changing a cork.

Albanycountyfasteners.com sells both the HO25 c clips in stainless steel and the exact set of pliers to do the job. With a jury-rigged setup, you need three hands to avoid having parts fly around the room. With the right tool you can just stick a small Phillips screwdriver against the hole in the disk to remove the pressure and use the other hand to remove the clip. Reverse to install. And much less chance of buggering the clip itself.

HO-25SS 1/4" Internal Retaining Ring - Stainless Steel - Qty-25 now $13.00
RPS-100 Internal Standard Pliers - 1/4" through 5/16" Ring Size now $27.75
_________________
Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
etc-etc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6157

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are three issues here: the design, the quality of manufacture and the maintenance.

Amado waterkey had originally been designed by Mr. Amado with a sealing spring-loaded piston held in the key casing by a threaded cover. To make it cheaper, however, the threaded cover was replaced by a circlip that would fit into a circular groove in the key casing.

It is the circlip that causes the disassembly to be difficult, dangerous (need to have eye protection when working) and complicated - one has to use circlip pliers and open the key inside a plastic bag in case the circlip flies away. In a rush of the last moment before the performance, one does not have the luxury of doing this work as slowly as needed and would normally not have the requisite tools, spare parts and lighting at hand.

The quality of manufacturing is absolutely critical for Amados. Fabricated with too loose tolerances, they leak air. Fabricated with too tight tolerances, they get easily stuck when dry or dirty. Pick your choice.

Getzen has Amados with circlips done "just right" so that they do not leak air and do not get stuck - given constant oiling and cleaning.

In Carol Brass horns, Amados are made according to the original design with a threaded key cover - these are a breeze to take apart and to maintain. They do not leak air, either.

Other makers can be worse. One music store I visited had a new Blessing flugelhorn with a seized (open!) Amado waterkey on the main tube. You could not play anything on that horn. The store did not have tools nor anyone to quickly fix the horn (they just had disposed off their in-store instrument repair).

Any Amado will eventually get stuck if enough gunk is caught between the waterkey casing and piston, or if solid material gets caught at the edge of the water shedding hole and is pushed between the mating surfaces. Once the key is stuck, the ease of disassembly comes again to the forefront.

In summary, Amados are prone to failure unless meticulously fabricated and maintained. They also look unsightly. No wonder they are used less frequently than the regular lever waterkeys.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 897
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
There are three issues here: the design, the quality of manufacture and the maintenance.

Amado waterkey had originally been designed by Mr. Amado with a sealing spring-loaded piston held in the key casing by a threaded cover. To make it cheaper, however, the threaded cover was replaced by a circlip that would fit into a circular groove in the key casing.

It is the circlip that causes the disassembly to be difficult, dangerous (need to have eye protection when working) and complicated - one has to use circlip pliers and open the key inside a plastic bag in case the circlip flies away. In a rush of the last moment before the performance, one does not have the luxury of doing this work as slowly as needed and would normally not have the requisite tools, spare parts and lighting at hand.

The quality of manufacturing is absolutely critical for Amados. Fabricated with too loose tolerances, they leak air. Fabricated with too tight tolerances, they get easily stuck when dry or dirty. Pick your choice.

Getzen has Amados with circlips done "just right" so that they do not leak air and do not get stuck - given constant oiling and cleaning.

In Carol Brass horns, Amados are made according to the original design with a threaded key cover - these are a breeze to take apart and to maintain. They do not leak air, either.

Other makers can be worse. One music store I visited had a new Blessing flugelhorn with a seized (open!) Amado waterkey on the main tube. You could not play anything on that horn. The store did not have tools nor anyone to quickly fix the horn (they just had disposed off their in-store instrument repair).

Any Amado will eventually get stuck if enough gunk is caught between the waterkey casing and piston, or if solid material gets caught at the edge of the water shedding hole and is pushed between the mating surfaces. Once the key is stuck, the ease of disassembly comes again to the forefront.

In summary, Amados are prone to failure unless meticulously fabricated and maintained. They also look unsightly. No wonder they are used less frequently than the regular lever waterkeys.
Thank you for all of this information. I'm also not a big fan of the look. I'm considering getting a main tuning slide with a standard waterkey. My horn doesn't really collect water in the third valve slide so I'll probably just leave that one alone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Divitt Trumpets
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 519
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to get a whole new slide. Just get a repair shop to install your preferred waterkey on your current slide.
_________________
www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Croquethed
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 609
Location: Oakville, CT

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Getzen 900 will occasionally collect water in the main slide. A little blast of canned air fixes it without fail. It drains just as well as my horn with standard keys 99% of the time.

I lube it with a drop of very light oil (Doc's Juice) and it gets a bath every month. I make sure to flush the Amados out under the spigot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8964
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Easy"? One man's easy is another man's annoyance, if downright tricky, and not worth the bother.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol - one of the reasons I long lusted for a Severinsen Eterna - besides that Doc played one - were what I perceived as those modern, "space age" push-button spit valves. I thought they were cool as heck then and still do. The Amados on my approximately circa 1970 Eterna probably aren't as fresh as they were new but work fine if kept cleaned and lubed.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JWG
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amado water keys work wonderfully if you practice good trumpet hygiene:

1. Before playing, wash your mouth out thoroughly to remove residual sugars, starches, and acids that cause build up of bacteria and red rot.

2. After playing, dry you horn out by blowing condensation from all 4 slides and swabbing the lead pipe (and/or blowing through a Spitball through each air passage) again to prevent build up of bacteria and red rot.

3. Whenever you oil your valves, put a drop of oil into the Amado valves and/or down the lead pipe followed by some air to coat the interior of your horns with some oil.

After over a decade of using Amado water keys, I have taken them apart only once just to see what gunk might have collected within them. However, I found them clean inside. So, with proper trumpet hygiene, Amado water keys work flawlessly.

Amado keys' "Achilles Heel" does not arise from their design; it arises from playing with sugars, starches, and acids in our mouthes and providing a wet environment where biological and chemical reactions can take place between anything that we leave in the horn.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:
Amado water keys work wonderfully if you practice good trumpet hygiene:

1. Before playing, wash your mouth out thoroughly to remove residual sugars, starches, and acids that cause build up of bacteria and red rot.

2. After playing, dry you horn out by blowing condensation from all 4 slides and swabbing the lead pipe (and/or blowing through a Spitball through each air passage) again to prevent build up of bacteria and red rot.

3. Whenever you oil your valves, put a drop of oil into the Amado valves and/or down the lead pipe followed by some air to coat the interior of your horns with some oil.

After over a decade of using Amado water keys, I have taken them apart only once just to see what gunk might have collected within them. However, I found them clean inside. So, with proper trumpet hygiene, Amado water keys work flawlessly.

Amado keys' "Achilles Heel" does not arise from their design; it arises from playing with sugars, starches, and acids in our mouthes and providing a wet environment where biological and chemical reactions can take place between anything that we leave in the horn.

So to sum up the post, Amado water keys require some players to completely change their routines, unlike other more common options which are not similarly susceptible, but this doesn’t arise from their design.

I wonder what else it could be?

Note that I personally don’t have an issue with them. I like the look. And much of the advice in the quoted post is just good routines to have and maintain.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a fan of Amado water keys and I agree about trumpet hygiene and maintenance.
Lots of times when you empty an Amado, you do not need to blow at all, just hold the horn at the proper angle and open the key, the condensation will just fall out. Blowing lightly gets more most times, but the quick silent drop is usually enough and very useful. No noise.
Just like you have to be aware of the condition of your standard keys -- cork condition, etc., you should be aware of the condition of your Amados. Regular oiling goes a long way.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tony Scodwell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1954

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:50 pm    Post subject: Amado keys Reply with quote

Here we go again...

If you don't like either the look or function of the Amado waterkey just change them to your favorite lever type key.And if you think maintenance on an Amado key is hard, give me your opinion when you have to change a hairpin spring on the lever type. And as good as the Carol Brass version is with the screw end cap, they also went a bit larger with the hole to 1/8th inch. I prefer the Carol Brass keys and I would say the same to Ray Amado if he were still alive. Ray's son is in charge of the waterkey production these days and maintains strict tolerances with the people producing them. The original design did indeed call for a screw end cap and yes, it was cost prohibitive for production. Same for the nipple exit that was individually silver soldered in place which were used initially.

The design Ray did for DEG on his keys utilized a snap-on plastic end cap. Monette uses a similar key these days and removing the plastic end cap with an Exacto knife is easy but you will need to replace the plastic end cap as they generally get destroyed when removing them. I re-work the standard Amado keys on my lathe cutting a groove on the end to accommodate the plastic end cap which Ray's son was kind enough to send me all remaining pieces of. They were made in silver and gold colored plastic and circlips and end plates are a thing of the past after this change.

I will say once again, crud will end up inside the piston groove and no amount of brushing inside the slides will remove it. Without disassembling the key, a can of air used for cleaning computers aimed into the exit hole with the key depressed does a good job of dislodging any crud hiding behind the piston. And as tolerances are very tight, valve oil into the hole and around the piston end whenever you oil the valves is a good idea.

And why have none of the anti-Amado people here on the forum mentioned the actual idea Ray designed his key for? It was for acoustic reasons with the added advantage of having a coil spring that is never under stress until the piston is depressed unlike the hairpin springs on lever type keys which are always under stress. Ever hear of a valve spring breaking?

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Manuel de los Campos
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 649
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a great big fan of Getzen trumpets I like Amado waterkeys.
I know a lot of trumpetplayers who very dislike them but actually they dislike them because they do not know how to operate them properly.
The trick is that you have to empty your trumpet with your left hand: just squize with your left hand both the Amado keys while blowing softly through the instrument whiggeling the valves.

And that's all
_________________
Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
tptptp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1408
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Amado keys Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:

valve oil into the hole and around the piston end whenever you oil the valves is a good idea.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


Even though it isn't necessary very often, I hate taking apart Amado keys.
For the last few years, I've been oiling like Tony said every time I oil the valves.
I've had no problems at all, and haven't felt a need to take them apart.
_________________
Craig Mitchell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tptptp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 1408
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JWG wrote:


3. Whenever you oil your valves, put a drop of oil into the Amado valves

After over a decade of using Amado water keys, I have taken them apart only once just to see what gunk might have collected within them. However, I found them clean inside. So, with proper trumpet hygiene, Amado water keys work flawlessly.


Oh and credit JWG on this principle also.
_________________
Craig Mitchell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
etc-etc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6157

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course, replacing a broken hairpin spring can be more dangerous than replacing a circlip. However, stopgap repair of a lever key with a rubber band will do the trick for the duration of a concert. In comparison, an Amado key, when stuck open, is not easily repairable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group