View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12658 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
etc-etc wrote: | Of course, replacing a broken hairpin spring can be more dangerous than replacing a circlip. However, stopgap repair of a lever key with a rubber band will do the trick for the duration of a concert. In comparison, an Amado key, when stuck open, is not easily repairable. |
However, replacing a missing waterkey cork isn’t quite as easy to remedy as the rubber band trick.
I haven’t had a stuck open Amado key but couldn’t a piece of chewing gum or a piece of rubber and a rubber band serve as a temporary fix?
One would think the Amado vs traditional water key debate would have been resolved many years ago. I suppose that the fact trumpeters are stubborn, self confident and rarely admit fault might factor in. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180
|
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I thought about chewing gum but would not want to stuff it down the open Amado key. A piece of rubber might work, depending on whether it would seal off the leak - it might not in the sideways direction.
There are also the Saturn keys designed by Dennis Wedgwood that are unfortunately not very pretty but quite functional. Jason Harrelson installs these. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12658 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
etc-etc wrote: | I thought about chewing gum but would not want to stuff it down the open Amado key. A piece of rubber might work, depending on whether it would seal off the leak - it might not in the sideways direction.
There are also the Saturn keys designed by Dennis Wedgwood that are unfortunately not very pretty but quite functional. Jason Harrelson installs these. |
There is also the Pollard water key. It seems to be a new take on the Amado. The claim is that the conical plunger never sticks like the Amado’s cylindrical plunger.
And then there is the Joy Key Water Key which has no moving parts at all. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180
|
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here is the correct link for Pollard water key (mating cone).
Saturn water key mates a spherical plug.
Amado mates a cylindrical plug. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Leatherlip Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2002 Posts: 105 Location: Chicagoland
|
Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Divitt Trumpets"]Every waterkey design has some flaws. There isn't one of them listed in this post that I haven't had an issue with.
My experience with Amado keys are all the same as mentioned. Sticking, loss of small parts, and not emptying all the water out. If you do change over to a lever action water key, the shop will also need to open the hole in the tuning slide tubing to match the larger lever key hole. Not a big deal if using a drill stop. Chances are also good that additional silver plating won't e needed.
The other thing mentioned about using a rubber band when a hair spring breaks, may work for some horns, but I've also seen where the chemicals in the rubber band will eat away silver leaving marks of where the silver used to be. For a short time, this may work OK, but some students or parents might just leave it that way. Might be better to use a twisty tie as you might find for a loaf of bread or something.
And last of my 2 cents, is that I've used a pencil eraser in place of a "gone missing" water key cork. Just snap the eraser off and the spring tension will usually hold the eraser in place. This usually happens to young students 2 seconds before their concert starts. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gruvertpt Regular Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2004 Posts: 68 Location: Edwardsburg, Michigan
|
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have Amado's installed on the 3rd valve slides on all of my Bach Strads. 25+ years with ZERO problems. I always put a drop of oil on the water key every time I oil my valves. _________________ Steve Gruver
-----------------------------
Bach 180s43--B-Flat
Bach 181s37--Cornet
Bach C180S239R--C
Yamaha 9610--D/Eb
Yamaha 9830 Custom--Piccolo
Blackburn leadpipes
Conn Wonder Cornet (c. 1902)
Conn 22B Trumpet "Symphonic" (c. 1927) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
|
Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I see that many people that have been around here a long time are sick of this topic, I understand. Just my opinion, since it's new to me.
I have only had a couple horns with amado water keys and this is my first experience with a brand new horn, so I just wanted to share my experience after 2 years with it.
Never had any problems with traditional water keys, not even on the dozens of banged up old public school instruments I teach kids on each year. I've replaced a few corks which is extremely straightforward and easy.
It reminds me of when snowboarding companies came out with new "step-in" bindings to replace the old-school straps when I was first getting into snowboarding. They were sleek and modern, but performance sucked.
It's true I probably should have been oiling my water-keys more frequently. I don't like oiling my waterkeys. It gets oil everywhere and it is something I never needed to do before. I will take the blame for them getting stuck. But still, just in general I don't like them and don't see any advantage. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raynjtrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2021 Posts: 53 Location: Freehold, NJ
|
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Jaw04"
It's true I probably should have been oiling my water-keys more frequently. I don't like oiling my waterkeys. It gets oil everywhere and it is something I never needed to do before. I will take the blame for them getting stuck. But still, just in general I don't like them and don't see any advantage.[/quote]hh
I had the same issue re oiling and mess when I first got my Thane, which uses Amado keys. But I found a small refillable plastic bottle with a very fine needle point. I now keep just a little valve oil in that, and use it to oil my water keys each time I oil my valves. It's much easier to place a drop of oil in the little 1/8" hole in the keys without spilling oil all over the slides. _________________ Ray Ritchie
Freehold, NJ USA |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1408 Location: Georgia
|
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jaw04 wrote: | I see that many people that have been around here a long time are sick of this topic, I understand. Just my opinion, since it's new to me.
|
Don't worry about that. Discussion is good.
They can just stop reading if they're sick of it. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
|
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:37 am Post subject: Amado keys |
|
|
I'm still waiting for someone to mention why the Amado key was invented in the first place. They stick, they leak, oil gets everywhere, they're hard to maintain, they're ugly...wah, wah, wah. Swap them out for an old style lever key and move on.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1468 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:57 am Post subject: Re: Amado keys |
|
|
Tony Scodwell wrote: | I'm still waiting for someone to mention why the Amado key was invented in the first place. They stick, they leak, oil gets everywhere, they're hard to maintain, they're ugly...wah, wah, wah. Swap them out for an old style lever key and move on.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Hear hear!! _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
|
Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have been using Amados for decades with zero issues. I much prefer them to traditional water keys. Cork/rubber will eventually dry out and/or take a set. Traditional water keys also look like crap.
All I do is occasionally put a drop of valve oil on my Amados. I also brush my teeth before I play my horn. That isn't to protect the Amados, that is to protect the whole horn. I use Blow Dry Brass each day after I am done playing. Once in a great while I'll disassemble the horn and give it a bath. When I do it's still clean........ _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
|
Back to top |
|
|
BrassBells New Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2020 Posts: 4 Location: Burbank, CA
|
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
20 years using Amados on my main horn. My observations; They have never leaked, I have never had to replace a cork, I have never had a spring break, they're easier to operate both one handed. that being said, every other horn I own that doesn't have Amados has experienced at least one of the issues listed. I'll stick with them. Clean your horns. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
|
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Amado keys |
|
|
deleted _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
|
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When I first started playing again in 2014 after more than a decade away, I was intrigued by many of the "advances" that had happened in the trumpet world while I was away. The Pollard, Saturn, and Joy water keys really got my attention but, never really had a reason to make any changes, no failures with the traditional setup that is on most of my horns or the Amados on both of my Getzen flugelhorns... ever, all the way back to the 70s, so if it ain't broke...
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180
|
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A minor variation on the Joy waterkey would be to have a small patch of purposefully red-rotted material at the lower bend of the tuning slide. It will be porous and will leak spit. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1408 Location: Georgia
|
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Amado keys |
|
|
Tony Scodwell wrote: | I'm still waiting for someone to mention why the Amado key was invented in the first place. They stick, they leak, oil gets everywhere, they're hard to maintain, they're ugly...wah, wah, wah. Swap them out for an old style lever key and move on.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
"Wah, wah, wah..... Move on!"
Tony Scodwell
Trumpet Herald 2022.
Good life advice. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
|
Back to top |
|
|
adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 903
|
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How come nobody has mentioned the "bumper effect"? When you bang your horn against a chair, stand, or other object in close proximity, a standard lever water key provides some protection against dents, just like the bumper on a car. With an Amado or similar type "manual draining device", the slide bows are much more exposed, and therefore more susceptible to damage due to smacking the horn against an inanimate object. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180
|
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
adagiotrumpet wrote: | How come nobody has mentioned the "bumper effect"? When you bang your horn against a chair, stand, or other object in close proximity, a standard lever water key provides some protection against dents, just like the bumper on a car. With an Amado or similar type "manual draining device", the slide bows are much more exposed, and therefore more susceptible to damage due to smacking the horn against an inanimate object. |
You are right - both on trumpet and on a cornet. On a cornet, depending on the wrap, it may be the third valve slide that gets protected by the lever key which protrudes out further than the leadpipe crook.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|