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When Was my Holton Symphony T101B Made?



 
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bgosvig
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Joined: 10 Dec 2021
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Location: Fairfield, Iowa

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:08 pm    Post subject: When Was my Holton Symphony T101B Made? Reply with quote

Hi All:

The Holton Serial number look-up tables I've found all seem to end at 1980 - not sure why.

I just acquired a Holton Symphony T101B with the serial number 811XXX.

I'm guessing this is an 80's horn, but not sure what year.

Does anyone have any idea of this trumpet's vintage?

Much appreciated!

Ben
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how to tell which year, but you can tell if it is an "early" T101 or a later T101 by the bracing. If it is double-braced -- main tuning slide, and leadpipe to the tube into third valve slide-- it is early as Holton switched to single bracing.
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bgosvig
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Location: Fairfield, Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
I don't know how to tell which year, but you can tell if it is an "early" T101 or a later T101 by the bracing. If it is double-braced -- main tuning slide, and leadpipe to the tube into third valve slide-- it is early as Holton switched to single bracing.


Yes, it's double-braced - without the Holton medallion on either brace.

When I had the horn serviced by a local tech, who sells Bach Strads, he said: "This is totally a Bach horn that's just been stamped "Holton".

I've heard the lore about Frank Holton supposedly buying the Bach tooling when Selmer moved their factory from New York to Elkhart, Indiana. If that's really what happened, the duplication of this horn from a Stradivarius was really perfect.

I also have a 180S37 Strad, and the two instruments are identical except for the Amado water key on the Holton. They even sound identical - to my ears.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Holton T101 was reverse engineered from an off-the-shelf Elkhart Bach Strad 18037. I liked my T101 in general, but thought it was stuffy in the upper register.
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bgosvig
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Location: Fairfield, Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
The Holton T101 was reverse engineered from an off-the-shelf Elkhart Bach Strad 18037. I liked my T101 in general, but thought it was stuffy in the upper register.


Yes, I agree - there are differences between the two. Yet, I've noticed that even between horns of the same brand and model, one can sometimes detect differences.

Although I find the two horns amazingly similar, I do slightly prefer my Strad. It seems to initiate notes ever-so-slightly with more immediacy.

That said, if I didn't have them both side-by-side, I could happily live with the Holton forever. It's a lovely horn.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
The Holton T101 was reverse engineered from an off-the-shelf Elkhart Bach Strad 18037. I liked my T101 in general, but thought it was stuffy in the upper register.

They reverse engineered it a little too precisely....

(I kid! Kind of.)
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Last edited by Crazy Finn on Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
The Holton T101 was reverse engineered from an off-the-shelf Elkhart Bach Strad 18037. I liked my T101 in general, but thought it was stuffy in the upper register.


Leblanc merged Martin and Holton R&D into a single effort. That team bought a 1980 Bach 37 at a music store after play testing a bunch of them and disassembled it. They made precise measurements of every part, and set-up manufacture of the T-101 to be an almost identical horn. The pistons are slightly longer, thus slightly heavier, the tubing is drawn differently resulting in some minor variation in wall thickness and localized mass vs a Bach, and the valve cap thread is different. But other than that, pretty much the same.

The Bach was put back together after measurements were completed - Leblanc didn't believe in wasting any money.
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Dutchman1954
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the earliest T101 Holton trumpets were made by Courtois in the mid 1960's, shortly after Holton was acquired by Leblanc. I have a T101A Artist in which the serial # pegs it's build date in 1965, which was a year after the LeBlanc acquisition.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dutchman1954 wrote:
Actually, the earliest T101 Holton trumpets were made by Courtois in the mid 1960's, shortly after Holton was acquired by Leblanc. I have a T101A Artist in which the serial # pegs it's build date in 1965, which was a year after the LeBlanc acquisition.


The T-101 number (which was briefly B-101 in early 1965) was assigned to the second generation of the pre-Leblanc Model 50 trumpets. These were patterned on the Conn 38B Connstellation. In 1981, T-101 102, and 103 were re-assigned to the Bach clones, while T-104 continued to be the Connstellation clone.

BTW: Courtois valves & trim start showing up on some Holtons in 1958. It is unclear if the horns simply used sourced parts, or were made in France without being so marked.
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www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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