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Where does my Bach Strad Reverse Leadpipe 43 stack up?


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markag
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:09 pm    Post subject: Where does my Bach Strad Reverse Leadpipe 43 stack up? Reply with quote

I’ve been playing in the same horn now for over 20+ years. It’s a Bach Strad reverse leadpipe 43 bell that I got when I started high school. It’s from the late 1990s. At the time I got it, it was probably one of the nicest horns at my local music store, and it was the one that seemed to work the best with me of the roughly dozen or so horns I tried at the time. I played at least two other Strads at the time, and this reverse lead 43 was considerably nicer than the two more standard versions that I played (37 bell and 72 bell).

However, I’ve been getting the itch now 20+ years later to try something else out. What I’m wondering though is where my current horn stands in the pecking order of professional trumpets. If I judge based on price, I know a new version of my horn today seems to retail around $3500 USD, which is in the range of some of the Adams trumpets, or other pro horns, but not quite up to some of the really expensive boutique stuff.

Also, I seem to get the impression from the internet and individuals at times that a Bach Strad isn’t really a pro horn and that it is somehow a tier down from the real pro horns. You get comments along the lines of “most high school students go for a Bach Strad”, but with the implied connotation that is somehow inferior to real pro horns. Music stores or YouTube creators often will make references to stepping up from a Bach Strad when they talk pro horns. I’m curious what the pulse of the group is on where my horn stacks up to other pro horns, and if the impression I’ve been getting for years about the Strad is at all accurate.

For me, 95% of my playing is lead trumpet in a local big band. I feel my horn does well for me, but I also feel that something a little more specialized towards jazz playing would be of benefit. Playing more classical music in a church setting, my Bach really seems to fit that style very well and can really sing l. Playing classical music solos in a big room, especially parts at the top of the staff up to around high C really sounds great on this horn. However, I don’t always feel like it’s giving me what I want in the big band setting, or the sound it wants to make isn’t quite what I want when I’m playing the solo parts or sections of the charts.

So that kind of gets back to my original question of where my horn stacks up against other pro horns on the market, with a lean towards jazz and lead playing. What would the next steps up be for someone looking to go up a tier into a something better. Or, is it The case where my Bach Strad is on par with that top tier already, and looking for a new horn is really just a matter of matching myself up with the right fit.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you like it there is nothing wrong with it. Loads of pros play Bach (I’m no pro but play Bach anyway ). Mine is from 1992, bought new and like yours was the best horn I could find then for big band/funk/split lead playing. Had it redone 2015 with a 43 (non reverse) leadpipe, made the horn a little darker but easier to play overall with less resistance.

More interesting and to the point of your question, I did a long comparison with a large number of other pro horns just before Covid because I felt like you: have old horn, want new horn. In the bunch there were Yamahas, B&Ss, Bachs, Adams, Conn, bunch of other stuff I don’t remember.

Guess who came out on top? A reverse leadpipe 43, a lightweight 43, and a Conn 52B.

Obviously, this tells me I am happy with my present Bach and apparently it’s the type of horn I can best relate to. The 52B is great and if one comes up cheap I would be tempted. None of the other horns really felt better than the horn I already have (one exception: the Edwards X-13 is my „want“ piston horn, but quite pricey over here).

So, what did I do? I kept the Bach and bought the rotary in the signature I always wanted one and the Schmidt is easily the best horn I ever played. Use it a lot in orchestra and keep telling my wife how great a horn it is. Awesome horn and very different from the Bach. Nice contrast.
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JWG
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that my daughter’s ML bore 180 LR with 72 bell is a great horn. The combo of a lightweight valve section, standard weight bell, and reverse lead pipe plays very responsively and has a lot less resistance for a ML bore horn.

However, every horn, like every person, is unique and will have some quirks, both positive and negative, because every micron of variance matters in high brass instruments.

If you want to start a horn safari, I suggest that you search for a YOUTUBE video that came out a while ago, where a young man tried about 100 different horns and recorded them as he tried them. You may find it interesting.

Alternatively, the proverbial grass is rarely greener on the other side. If you still love your horn, send it to a specialist for a refurbishment. You may love your horn even more than when you got it new.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach Strad is the Fender Stratocaster of the trumpet world. There are fancier, more expensive, more specialized, and more unique instruments out there, but it is definitely not a step-down from anything and is played by many of the greats.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Bach isn't a pro horn is pure rubbish. Furthermore, get the name of who told you that and cross them off your list. They don't know what they're talking about.

I've never been a Bach man so take this FWIW. Want a great horn for playing big band lead parts while covering combo work too, get a Bach LT 190-1 Strad.

https://www.kesslerandsons.com/product/bach-commercial-lt190-stradivarius-trumpet/
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
That Bach isn't a pro horn is pure rubbish. Furthermore, get the name of who told you that and cross them off your list. They don't know what they're talking about.

I'm also a guy who sometimes responds when the Bach aficionados get a bit over their skis about the supposed supremacy of anything Bach.

However, I completely and unequivocally concur that the idea that Bach isn't a pro horn is utter rubbish.

Also, the 43 is my favorite Bach that I've played. I want to like the 72, but the 43 plays better for me. I haven't played all of the newer, more obscure models - I feel like the NY 7/7 might be up my alley.
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markag

My Bach 180S37 0.459 bore has a Charlie Melk leadpipe and has been blueprinted by Jim Becker at Osmun. Those 2 tweaks made a good horn great. In church settings, as you mentioned you play, it is perfect. I can play high C very easily (gently??) which is appropriate for the setting (1 church I play in has amazing acoustics, so I can't lean into it too hard).

But we all understand the desire for another horn. I also have a Kanstul 1001. Its characteristics sound just like your desires for another horn.

They are different horns, and I really enjoy the differences! I routinely switch for practicing - almost alternating days unless I am prepping for a weekend gig. I am very conscious of the differences. Keeps me in the Conscious-Competent quadrant.

Just my $0.02. Enjoy the search!
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raynjtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:01 am    Post subject: My experience Reply with quote

I have a Bach Strad 72 MLV that I bought around 1980, so I have about 40 years of positive experience with that horn. Before that, I played a model 37 for about 14 years. In the days when I started to get really serious about the trumpet, Bach was the best horn my local dealer carried, so that's what I got. I relocated to NJ after college graduation, and happily played the 37 until it got badly damaged after being dropped by a curious child. I went to the biggest local dealer at that time, and they happened to be having a Bach factory show, with copies of most of their available models - so I tried them all, and ended up choosing the 72. Again, I don't remember seeing a lot of other brands in the shop, and there were certainly none there that struck me as "better."

Fast-forward 40 years to February 2021, during the pandemic I found myself wanting to play again after a layoff of about 2 1/2 years. After practicing daily for several months, and thoroughly enjoying myself, I got the chance to play a friend's new Yamaha Chicago Gen III, and it did feel "better" to me, in terms of ease of blow, intonation, and valve action. So that planted the bug that maybe I wanted a new horn. At this point, I was aware that there was a vast universe of trumpets out there that might be candidates beyond Bach. But because of COVID and supply chain issues, it wasn't really possible for me to audition other horns in person, so after watching lots of online videos and reading tons of opinions and reviews, I decided to have a new trumpet built by Logan Brown of Thane trumpets. I received that horn in August, and I've played it almost every day since. Comparing to my Strad 72 MLV, it blows more easily, especially when playing softly, it has smoother, faster and quieter valve action, is easier to play in tune across all the registers, feels a little better in my hand, and has smoother action on the first and third valve slides. I look forward to picking it up every day. But I've never had the chance to play a Bach with a reverse leadpipe or a 43 bell, so I can't give specific comparisons to help you there. And some of the reviews and videos I've seen of the new Bach models still intrigue me, as do many of the high-end instruments I've still been unable to try. But for now, I've made my choice.

My bottom line is that I still believe my Bach is a fine instrument, fully worthy of being considered as "professional" grade. But I do feel that other brands and models can be "better", depending on what you're looking for. And I love my Thane - having an easier-playing and beautiful new horn has made my comeback easier and more fun. My friend with the Yamaha Chicago Gen III, who used to play a Bach, tried my Thane and said "That's probably the best Bb I've every played." I'm glad I did it.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray, what tonal differences were there between the Thane and the Bach?

Just to clarify, I was a long-time Getzen Severinsen player, a Constellation player next to that, with brief excursions to Schilke B-1 and B-7, Adams A-1, Committee and Benge. So, I hardly considered anything Bach when I began my search for a new horn. I actuaally tried Bach just to satisfy my curiosity and to see if my anti-Bach prejudice hadn't run its course. And was I surprised.

This is kind of a back-door endorsement. I first played and bought a Bach 190-37, probably (for me) the richest sound in a horn I've ever heard. Just georgeous, But being a multi-stroke victim, it was just a little too heavy. I emphasize, it's not a heavy horn, just borderline too heavy for me. So, I traded it for a Bach "Commercial" which was a little lighter and more manageable for me.

This Bach (see my signature) was a real surprise. I expected it to lean towards a brighter side but was pleasantly surprised that it still kept that Bach core for solo or combo playing. Check out the atch, video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g8nrODlZts

BTW, for me, any instrument has been a tool first, and cosmetics secondary, but I've got to say the bronze bell gives the horn a real beauty.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Where does my Bach Strad Reverse Leadpipe 43 stack up? Reply with quote

markag wrote:


Also, I seem to get the impression from the internet and individuals at times that a Bach Strad isn’t really a pro horn and that it is somehow a tier down from the real pro horns.

Thousands of careers were made on the 180 model. Yep - it's still a pro horn.
markag wrote:

For me, 95% of my playing is lead trumpet in a local big band. I feel my horn does well for me, but I also feel that something a little more specialized towards jazz playing would be of benefit.


So lead and classical are fine? You want something more for jazz?
By that do you mean "looser slotting" and or "darker"?

Certainly if you have the disposable income, buy an additional trumpet. New toys makes one feel better about playing - they just do.

If you don't want to spend that much money, there are lots of reversible things you can do to change the way your trumpet responds.

Mouthpieces - some sort of TF style.
Reeves sleeves to increase or decrease slotting
Tuning slides - M/K could fix you up with a different curved slide, with a larger Internal Diameter, copper, bronze, silver etc.
Different weighted (heavier or lighter) finger buttons, top valve caps, bottom valve caps.

Can you better describe the performance change you are hoping for?
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raynjtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Ray, what tonal differences were there between the Thane and the Bach?

Just to clarify, I was a long-time Getzen Severinsen player, a Constellation player next to that, with brief excursions to Schilke B-1 and B-7, Adams A-1, Committee and Benge. So, I hardly considered anything Bach when I began my search for a new horn. I actuaally tried Bach just to satisfy my curiosity and to see if my anti-Bach prejudice hadn't run its course. And was I surprised.

This is kind of a back-door endorsement. I first played and bought a Bach 190-37, probably (for me) the richest sound in a horn I've ever heard. Just georgeous, But being a multi-stroke victim, it was just a little too heavy. I emphasize, it's not a heavy horn, just borderline too heavy for me. So, I traded it for a Bach "Commercial" which was a little lighter and more manageable for me.

This Bach (see my signature) was a real surprise. I expected it to lean towards a brighter side but was pleasantly surprised that it still kept that Bach core for solo or combo playing. Check out the atch, video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g8nrODlZts

BTW, for me, any instrument has been a tool first, and cosmetics secondary, but I've got to say the bronze bell gives the horn a real beauty.


I'm not good at describing tonal qualities, but I'd say my Thane is at least "Bach-like" in tone. Its bell is made of gold brass, which is higher in copper content than the yellow brass of most Bachs I've played, and it's a 72-style bell, so you'd think it would be a bit darker; and when I play it in my living room, that's my impression. But when I play it in my church sanctuary, it seems slightly brighter, with some difference in the overtones. I guess it comes across to me a "lusher" and more complex. The horn does seem to respond to change in mouthpieces. Of the two I usually play, a Lotus 1L and a Monette Tradition Plus no. 2, the Lotus seems to brighten the tone, and the Monette makes it a little darker.

One of the comments posted on the Thane site describes the tone as "Bach on steroids."

The tone I get is not very similar to that video you posted, but that probably has a lot to do with who's behind the horn

FWIW, I think Logan does occasionally do bronze bells - at least, I'm pretty sure I've seen a photo of one - but his primary choices are yellow, gold, or red brass. The Performance model, though (my model) does use a two-piece valve casing of bronze and nickel, and there is a bronze brace nn the tuning slide, so I'm sure those both contribute to the tonal qualities.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Ray.
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markag
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I initially posted this question, I wasn’t specifically asking about horns specific to me, but more in general what do people step up to from the 180 model Bach Strads. Bach themselves have started the newer 190 series to get back to the root of what a Bach Strad used to be decades ago, and they also have their specific commercial horn line, which gives the impression that they don’t even see the 180 model Strad horns as a top tier pro horn.

To put it in car terms, is the Bach Strad to trumpets what a Honda Accord is to sedans. Everyone can drive an Accord and it will suit everyone’s needs, but that BMW M series would be a much better choice for someone that wants to drive something exciting that could perform better in a high performance application.

For me specifically, I feel my 180LR43 can feel like it has a thin sound while playing lead in the big band. I have struggled with the feeling of hitting a wall at around a double G above high C. I’ve seen opinions from others that a Strad isn’t really a great lead horn, and it’s not uncommon for people to hit a wall at some point above high C with these horns. The sound I have with classical music fits well for me. I would like a darker and more full sound for big band. I realize that playing a higher compression lead mouthpiece will tend to hurt me in the darker sound category, but there could be a middle ground. I’ve been eyeing the Adams trumpets, specifically because of the video coverage that Austin Custom Brass has for those horns. The A1 Gen II or the A4 LT are attractive horns to me that seems like they could be well suited for a jazz player.

There is a factor too that I’m just curious to try something new. I have some hobby income from things I do on the side that I could put towards a new horn. No reason other than it could be fun to try something new. I fully know that a new horn or a mouthpiece is not going to fundamentally change my playing ability or sound concept. However, I’m just curious what that next tier of horns would be that people move up into from a 180model Strad.

Bach sells thousands of Strads every year. Practically every high school senior that is serious about playing trumpet seems to play on some model of Strad, at least that was true when I was in high school. But then you look at what is getting played by the pros, and it’s usually not a 180 model Strad.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One doesn't move up from a Bach Strad, only sideways to another quality horn that may have different characteristics that suit a player better.. Michael Sachs, principal trumpet of the Cleveland Orchestra plays Strads, as do countless other top players. I actually found the Bb trumpet Mr. Sachs is currently playing.

And forget about price being a reliable indicia of trumpet desirability. An expensive trumpet may be beautifully finished but not play or sound as good as lesser priced instruments. It is all about the design.

Finally, I think it is a mistake to give much weight to what is posted on this forum. The vast majority of posters, myself included, are unkowns. Why rely on opinions that may be coming from young students, amateurs or even individuals who have developed bad playing habits over the years?

Unless it is a player of the stature of David Hickman or Tony Scodwell, to name just a couple, taking posts, my own included, with a grain of salt would seem to make sense.

Steve
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
One doesn't move up from a Bach Strad, only sideways to another quality horn that may have different characteristics that suit a player better.. Michael Sachs, principal trumpet of the Cleveland Orchestra plays Strads, as do countless other top players. I actually found the Bb trumpet Mr. Sachs is currently playing.

And forget about price being a reliable indicia of trumpet desirability. An expensive trumpet may be beautifully finished but not play or sound as good as lesser priced instruments. It is all about the design.

Finally, I think it is a mistake to give much weight to what is posted on this forum. The vast majority of posters, myself included, are unkowns. Why rely on opinions that may be coming from young students, amateurs or even individuals who have developed bad playing habits over the years?

Unless it is a player of the stature of David Hickman or Tony Scodwell, to name just a couple, taking posts, my own included, with a grain of salt would seem to make sense.

Steve


Beautifully stated. I couldn't agree more.
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markag
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winghorn wrote:
One doesn't move up from a Bach Strad, only sideways to another quality horn that may have different characteristics that suit a player better.. Michael Sachs, principal trumpet of the Cleveland Orchestra plays Strads, as do countless other top players. I actually found the Bb trumpet Mr. Sachs is currently playing.

And forget about price being a reliable indicia of trumpet desirability. An expensive trumpet may be beautifully finished but not play or sound as good as lesser priced instruments. It is all about the design.

Finally, I think it is a mistake to give much weight to what is posted on this forum. The vast majority of posters, myself included, are unkowns. Why rely on opinions that may be coming from young students, amateurs or even individuals who have developed bad playing habits over the years?

Unless it is a player of the stature of David Hickman or Tony Scodwell, to name just a couple, taking posts, my own included, with a grain of salt would seem to make sense.

Steve


Very valid points. I really wanted to just get a pulse of the group and see what other’s opinions were on the matter.

You did make one point that I hadn’t considered, and that was around the Strad being used for orchestra playing. For someone interested in jazz and commercial play styles, could that same statement hold true? Does a 180 Strad lean more orchestral than commercial / jazz?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markag wrote:
You did make one point that I hadn’t considered, and that was around the Strad being used for orchestra playing. For someone interested in jazz and commercial play styles, could that same statement hold true? Does a 180 Strad lean more orchestral than commercial / jazz?

I don’t know what Bach horn Michael Sachs uses for orchestral music but chances are that the primary horn for orchestral playing is a C which is a whole different animal from a Bb.

Comparing a C instrument to a Bb instrument by the same maker is kind of like comparing a hybrid to a muscle car by the same maker. The characteristics of one do not imply the other will have those.

But as Winghorn aptly pointed out, take my opinion with a grain of salt.

If you care Michael Sachs plays:
Bach Bb Trumpet, ML bore, New York (#6XX, c.1927)
Bach Bb Trumpet, ML bore, Mt. Vernon (#19XXX, c.1959)
Benge Bb Trumpet, ML bore, Chicago (#28XX, c.1949)
King Miniature Presentation Bb Trumpet, Liberty Model (c.1948)

Bach C Trumpet, L bore, Model 229, H leadpipe (#142XXX, c.1979)
Bach C Trumpet, ML bore, Mt. Vernon, Model 239 (#21XXX, c.1961)

Schilke D-Eb Trumpet, Model E3L (c.1982)
Schilke E-F-G Trumpet, Model G1L (c.1981)

Schilke A-Bb Piccolo Trumpet, Model P5-4 (c.1984)
Schilke A-Bb Piccolo Trumpet, Model P7-4 Prototype (2005)
Benge A-Bb Piccolo Trumpet (c.1978)

Yamaha Bb Flugelhorn, Model YFH-731 (c.1985)

Monke Bb Rotary Valve Trumpet, Model MB113GK, Gold Brass Bell (c.2000)
Monke C Rotary Valve Trumpet, Model MC113GK, Gold Brass Bell (c.2000)
Monke D Rotary Valve Trumpet, Model MD113GK, Gold Brass Bell (c.2000)

Getzen Bb shepherd’s crook Cornet (c.1984) pic1
Getzen C shepherd’s crook Cornet (c.1995)
Bach Bb Cornet, Mt. Vernon Model (#13XXX, c.1955)

Furst-Pless A Posthorn (without valves) (c.1968)
Furst-Pless Bb Posthorn (with valves) (c.2004)

MichaelSachs.com/Equipment
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Winghorn. OP says his Bach sounds thin when playing lead, I can see a few reasons that have nothing to do with the horn:

Wrong mouthpiece: I can quite easily bury my band or orchestra with the 43 plus my Lotus 3S in nickel silver.

Not enough air support: we all know that air flow and control is critical, especially at high volumes.

Maybe wrong leadpipe: my Bach opened up significantly when I went from the standard 25 to the 43 leadpipe.

Recently discovered for me and work in progress for me personally: stance when playing. I used to play with my feet far apart and slightly leaning backwards. Working on getting this fixed - a different position, more forward, etc. makes playing so much easier for me, but it’s quite a bit of work to change 40 year old habits.

Along the same lines: mouthpiece positioning and trumpet position. I used to hold my trumpet up straight like big band folks do it. Wrong decision. My sound is better when I play „towards the floor“, my range is better as well because my upper lip is free to vibrate. Also I place the mouthpiece higher up than I used to, with the same effects of better sound and range.

So maybe it’s not the horn but something in the general periphery?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markag wrote:
. . what do people step up to from the 180 model Bach Strads. Bach themselves have started the newer 190 series to get back to the root of what a Bach Strad used to be decades ago, and they also have their specific commercial horn line, which gives the impression that they don’t even see the 180 model Strad horns as a top tier pro horn. .


Are you going to keep ignoring the above statements? Why? The Bach 180 is a pro horn played by many.

The 190 is, to me, an enhanced version of the 180. That doesn't mean the 180 is not also quality, and some prefer the one-pieced-valve casing 180. For me, the 190 is very rich. Richer than the 180. That doesn't mean the 180 is not great, also.

Get what you want. My history has been non-Bach, because that's what I preferred not because I thought any less of Bachs.

BTW, do we have a budget or are we chasing our tails? OP, what price range are we talking about?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

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Croquethed
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 609
Location: Oakville, CT

PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a young guy at a summer jazz camp faculty concert a couple years back who absolutely killed. After the show I went up to him and asked him about his horn, which had plenty of mileage on it.

"Oh, it's just a Bach Strad," he said. I think he said it was a 72, but I can't swear to that. I can swear to him saying it was "just a Bach Strad."

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a listener who was enough of a gearhead to tell the difference between horns in the same general line.

Another jazz player I know who swears by a Strad is Takuya Kuroda, but his is a Mt. Vernon Strad from the 1950s. If you never heard him, he has no trouble playing great jazz on "just a Strad."
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