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What is intonation and why does it matter?



 
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westerner
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:21 pm    Post subject: What is intonation and why does it matter? Reply with quote

I kind of get what 'intonation' is in theory, being the accuracy of the pitch when playing a note. In practice, accurate pitch for each note is achieved or not by the player but the horn can make accurate pitch more or less difficult.

One feature that makes accurate pitch a little easier to achieve is a length of tubing such that the notes within the played range are sufficiently far apart. The high range on an F French Horn is challenging because the notes are so close to one another. A piccolo trumpet spreads the notes in the high range out.

Another maybe more subtle thing is how some horns "slot" more than others. They make certain notes easier to find and stay on. I'm not sure what makes some horns "slot" more than others. Does a sharper transition in the bell flare help?

Even supposing that a skilled player is doing their best and a horn has whatever features that make it easier to achieve accurate pitch, we still see inaccuracies particularly in some notes. We've all seen "intonation graphs" that plot pitch accuracy over a range of notes and the graphs are rarely flat.

So what is the effect, the end result of 'poor' intonation? Let's not consider a worst example of an awful sounding horn, but how about an instrument that is notorious for poor intonation: the flugelhorn. Suppose we take a decent flugelhorn that struggles a bit with intonation and contrast that with a trumpet, not just any trumpet but a trumpet that's very accurate. In practical terms, what is the application for each?

Does the intonation make the flugelhorn less suitable for some purposes than others? Orchestra? Brass Band? Jazz? Marching? I realize other characteristics determine a horns suitability for a purpose, but I'm asking about intonation specifically. How does it affect the way we might use a horn?
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intonation is about a horn being well in tune with itself, so you can adjust the tuning slide and be in tune with others.
The more others there are, the more important it is to be in tune with them.
If you're solo, meh.

As an old fluegelhorn player, lump me in with that Sartre quote from "No Exit".
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what flugelhorn you two are using, but not all brands or models have inherently bad intonation. Some are very good. Mine is at least as good as the best trumpets I've played and better than most. Back in the 1980s, Zig Kanstul and Byron Autrey discovered the solution to flugelhorn intonation. Zig has helped other manufacturers by sharing that information. So, Kanstul, Adams, Scodwell and others have come a long way from the designs of the early 20th century.

Byron also did a lot of work during his life on other types of instruments, one of which was the piccolo trumpet. He claimed to be the first to successfully apply a tapered lead pipe to a pic. If I remember correctly, he did this work in collaboration with Schilke and it resulted, at least in part, in the P5-4 which represents the industry standard today.

In response to some of your other points, what I think you are referring to when you compare the distance of "notes" on a French Horn and a piccolo trumpet are what is most commonly called "partials." Simply put, a partial is a note in the natural harmonic series of the instrument that is played with the same valve combination. A Bb trumpet plays concert Bb when one depresses no valves. It also will play concert F, Bb and D above that with no valves. Each of those notes identifies a partial. Each partial has seven valve combinations by which we can play seven distinct arpeggios without changing fingerings.

The reason a French horn has close partials is that it is normally played in its upper range. It's the same on a Bb trumpet, but it happens in the "stratosphere" where Maynard and Wayne Bergeron made their money. On trumpet the extreme upper range gets tiresome pretty quickly. On French horn, it is a sound I could listen to for hours.

Shawnino's comment about a horn in tune with itself is valid. Manufacturers are always learning how to accomplish and improve on this aspect. This results in the variety of differing models of instrument governed by separate philosophies, because players are different and have different approaches to intonation and how they want to achieve it.

Some years ago, I used to play extensively at my church in California. There was a man in the choir that had played trumpet in college, years before. He liked his Bach Stradivarius because he said, "I like to press the valve down and have the note come out. Like a piano!" On the other side, I once asked Zig Kanstul why the Benge 5 Flugelhorn had such problems with intonation. He said, "That bell was just too big!" Then, I told him that I had played two back in 1980 that my band director had purchased for college stage band and I didn't remember them having major issues. To which Zig replied, "Then, you must be one of those players who likes to 'place' each note." True, I am that, but I also think my ear has gotten more experience with intonation because the two or three Benge 5s I've played since my comeback have been awful. However, the sound...! That is why I preferred my Benge 5X trumpet to the ubiquitous Bach 180/37. I could tune it to the ensemble as I was playing through the music.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Does the intonation make the flugelhorn less suitable for some purposes than others? Orchestra? Brass Band? Jazz? Marching? I realize other characteristics determine a horns suitability for a purpose, but I'm asking about intonation specifically. How does it affect the way we might use a horn?"

I would say that as a solo instrument it improves the likelihood that you'll be out of tune with your accompaniment and as a group instrument it improves the chance you'll be out of tune with your section.

To my mind, intonation is one of those things that separates the pros from the amateurs. I count it as a compliment that I can now tell I'm sometimes out of tune. The problem is that a lot of people don't know they are out of tune. On this board, I have also heard people say that they have to "fight" some instruments to be in tune, and it comes as the expense of endurance and ease of play.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intonation is simply playing the 'correct pitch'. And 'correct' means the pitch that 'sounds the way it should' - pretty vague huh? When playing strictly solo, that pitch depends on the desired effect of the sound. When playing with piano, it's usual to stay with the tuning / intonation of the piano.

Intonation should not be confused with the 'sound characteristics' of the instrument. Different instruments (and players) have different sound characteristics even when playing the same pitch. A composer usually orchestrates a piece using instruments that should have the desired sound characteristics, and the composer assumes (hopes) that they will be played with acceptable intonation.

Strong slotting doesn't mean good intonation or an 'even scale' - it means that the instrument doesn't allow the player to do much 'lip adjustments' to affect the pitch - if the player inputs a pitch within the range, the instrument will have a tendency to strongly slot that range of pitches into a particular output pitch - and there's no guarantee that the output pitch will be what is desired.

About flugelhorn intonation - maybe a better example would be mellophone.

Flugelhorn has 'sound characterics' much different than trumpet or cornet, and that is why it can be out of place - unless the 'flugel' sound is desired.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
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Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to correct any possible misconceptions, I currently play a Taylor fluegel and I find its intonation very good.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies if someone else has already said this, and I'm overlooking it, but two things come to mind as concerns for an instrument with poor intonation.

Most likely you can hear what pitch you want to create in your head, so you'll make subconscious adjustments to get them. If the instrument you're playing won't play the pitch you want in the "centre", then you'll still likely bend it subtly into being in tune, but the quality of the sound will suffer relative to the good notes, because of playing out of centre. It's much easier to play with even sound quality and volume on an instrument that's more in tune.

Building on that, especially on soft first attacks, a more in tune trumpet will give you fewer "airballs" on delicate entrances, because the frequency you hear and the frequency the trumpet is setup to produce will be close enough together. Soft first attacks give us very little margin for error, so if you're not pretty much on target from the start, it's easy to have a note not speak. To some extent, evenness of response is a feature influenced by intonation, because the notes will speak where you expect them, without a bunch of manipulation.

So, you can make up your own mind about which musical applications this might be more or less important for, but in short, the more important high standards of accuracy are with respect to volume, timing, tone colour, and also intonation itself, the more important it is that your instrument has good intonation.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: What is intonation and why does it matter? Reply with quote

westerner wrote:

Does the intonation make the flugelhorn less suitable for some purposes than others? Orchestra? Brass Band? Jazz? Marching? I realize other characteristics determine a horns suitability for a purpose, but I'm asking about intonation specifically. How does it affect the way we might use a horn?

All the other information withstanding, this is your question, right? And the answer is that any professional musician will have equipment and an ear that would preclude any prohibition, intonation-wise, from playing in any situation.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP doesn't seem to respect that with modern tuning standards all intonations are compromises. Even when you tune a piano you don't/can't tune it perfectly. You tune it in a way that minimizes the tuning errors that can never be resolved. Keyed and valved winds instruments can't be made to assure correct intonation in all cases. A player that doesn't learn to listen and adjust will plateau in their development.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 2 older Getzen Flugelhorns of the same model designation, however they are worlds apart in different ways.

1976, very different build from most modern examples (especially bell branch); beautiful, broad sound characteristics, difficult intonation, the addition of a 3rd slide trigger and a Reeves FL piece help to a degree. I love the sound of this horn so much that I make the necessary physical adjustments (many) to play it often! I have had a very long term relationship with this horn in spite of the necessary extra effort.

1998, build is much more like the garden variety; intonation is very good (I wasted money adding a 3rd trigger, seemed like a good idea, totally unnecessary), sound spectrum not as rich. I approximate the sound of the '76 by using a much deeper Reeves HF piece to assist to a certain point. When needed, I loan this horn others since it is a little easier to work.

The common ingredient is that constant "in the moment" attention and comprehensive knowledge of the specific instrument is necessary on my part for both to work well. It is not a stretch to say, regarding all of my instruments, if the operator is not working than neither is the tool! Ask me how I know!

Mike
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