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Debris In New Horn's Valves



 
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:37 pm    Post subject: Debris In New Horn's Valves Reply with quote

I've been dealing with some fairly constant debris buildup on a new horn that I started breaking in around late November/early December of last year. I've probably logged about 100 hours on the horn so far, but still continue to wipe debris off the pistons and out of the bottom caps. After logging so much time on the horn, I've begun to wonder if this is worth looking into further, or if I'm better off letting it run its course and just switching over to regular maintenance - any advice would be much appreciated.

Both this horn and the last horn I broke in use Carol Brass blocks. However, the last horn had pretty much run its course with the debris after two weeks. With the new horn, I've been wiping down the pistons just about every day and have given it three full baths, but two months later and I'm still getting black when wiping down the pistons.

The only extenuating circumstance I can think of is that a local tech did do some lapping on the horn's 2nd valve. Would it be possible that some residue remains that could be contributing to the debris? The tech is experienced and well-regarded - he cleaned the casing after the lapping and used a high-quality non-embedding garnet lapping compound. The work was done about 3 weeks ago, and the horn received a full bath and numerous piston wipe-downs since then.

(As an aside, I brought the horn in due to sticking/poor valve feel on the 2nd valve, though not with the intention of lapping the valve. However, the tech though the fit of the 2nd valve was overly tight and needed to be lapped in more for smooth operation. Not something I'd prefer to do on any horn, but the 2nd valve has been working smoothly since).

For reference, here's what came off the pistons when wiping them down after playing today. The 2nd valve has been an especially large source of debris.



I'd much appreciate any advice regarding my options going forward. After so much time spent on cleaning, I'm getting pretty tired and would like to switch over to basic oiling, but am worried that ignoring the debris will damage the horn.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible that there is “debris” in the connecting tubes between the valves. Cleaning those requires extra attention.

I would not expect it to continue as long as you describe though. Unless some lapping compound is in there and slowly migrating as you play.

It is possible to run the cleaning brush through the valve crook’s receiver, through the valve and out the other side.

Remove the first and third crooks. Look into one side and press the valves in different combinations until you can see daylight out the other valve’s receiver. You can then carefully run the cleaning brush/snake through the tubing.

Never force the snake, be gentle and stop if there is resistance.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you taken the instrument apart and cleaned it - ran water through it, flexible snake, valve brushes, etc?
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can be a fairly laborious take to remove all lapping compound. It often requires solvents like naptha to truly get it all.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why was second valve lapped on a new horn?

I recognize that Carol blocks arrive with tight tolerances and not fully seated, with the intent that the new owner wear them in over a period of time, vs the Getzen approach of carefully lapping them to an ideal fit, but they still function well on day 1. Anything that would normally prompt someone to accelerate wear would be a warranty item in my book.

Stainless pistons take a rapid toll on brass casings, so 100 hours should be adequate to wear the valves in normally and minimize black gunk production. So, I see 2 possibilities:

1) This block had a significant defect or suffered damage resulting in undue pressure on the pistons (your use of a tech to lap 2nd seems in-line with this scenario), or
2) You are laying your fingers flat across the valves or otherwise imparting lateral force to the pistons causing them to hour-glass the casing as they wear in (which takes out a lot more brass over a longer time).
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don’t want that.

I bet the tech used pumice as the lapping compound. I don’t like that stuff. It’s hard to get out, but you need to get it out. Washing might not get it out.
Check with the tech and say you want all of it out.

That black stuff is your valve casing wearing out
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses. I've been considering that some debris might be stuck in the valve block's connecting tubes. I'll look into finagling a snake through those tubes - at the moment I've just used a casing brush when cleaning as I'm pretty timid when it comes to messing with the valves.

To answer some questions:

I gave the horn a full bath after getting it back from the tech. Everything was brushed out with Dawn and the horn soaked in a hot water/Dawn mix for about 45 minutes. I also gave the horn two baths prior to taking it to the tech.

I didn't intend to have the valve lapped - I had taken it to the tech due to experiencing poor valve feel/sticking on the 2nd valve. I wanted to be sure nothing got knocked or misaligned in shipping. The tech checked the straightness and roundness of the casing and found no issues, but felt that the piston was having too much contact with the casing. He thought that additional lapping was needed to properly fit the piston.

If he asked me prior to doing the lapping, I'm not sure I would have gone for it and am certainly not crazy that the valve was lapped. However, he is an experienced and well-regarded tech and has built multiple horns himself.

He confirmed that the lapping compound he uses is a non-embedding garnet compound. I've asked him about the debris I've seen and he wasn't concerned, just recommending an occasional wipe-down and another bath in a few weeks.

This Carol block seems to be a bit different than what ships on Carol-made horns. While the block is made by Hoxon, the builder told me they get blocks with monel pistons, rather than stainless steel. I doubt that I'm applying too much lateral force on the pistons. My other Hoxon-blocked horn hasn't exhibited anything similar to what I've run into with this horn.

I've been considering trying an ultrasonic/chem clean on the horn - would one possibly be a better choice if I wanted to be sure all lapping compound was out of the horn?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither is appropriate in this case. The black residue cleans out, as do lapping abrasives, with simple soap and water. Additional black is not residue from lapping, it is brass residue from ongoing abrasion.

Chem cleans use an acid to cut mineral deposits and metal oxides that accumulate over long periods of time. All one will do with a new horn is strip a small amount of brass and a larger amount of zinc from the inner layer of brass giving red rot a toe-hold.

Ultrasonic cleaning is very hard on the surfaces, and will add the equivalent of years of use to valve wear. Some inexperienced techs leave the pistons in and that really messes up the valves. Ultrasonic cleaning will find and exploit any structural flaw, and is good at separating joints on vintage horns where the solder is failing. Ultrasonic cleaning is only suitable for horns that, as above, have heavy long-term build-up to be removed. With ultrasonic cleaning, the brass is safe from acid damage, but the joints can take a pounding.

This appears to trace back to understanding what was wrong with second to begin with. Something is resulting in ongoing accelerated wear, turning the casing surface into black grime that is abrasive in itself.

When a valve on a new horn does not work properly, the manufacturer's rep should be call #1. Now, the manufacturer is off the hook.

Depending what the horn is worth, it may be wise to send it to a valve expert before things become irreversible.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
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1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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