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UMI Benge?


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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:02 pm    Post subject: UMI Benge? Reply with quote

Has anyone had any experience with UMI Benge trumpets? I understand that they're not great, compared to a "proper Benge" but can they be "optimized" or "blueprinted" or whatever to make them play like the real deal? Asking for a friend...
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: UMI Benge? Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
Has anyone had any experience with UMI Benge trumpets? I understand that they're not great, compared to a "proper Benge" but can they be "optimized" or "blueprinted" or whatever to make them play like the real deal? Asking for a friend...


I've only encountered one. It played okay. The lead pipe was soldered (or bent) out of line with the bottom tube, so the tuning slide was always under stress. The best Benge will outplay almost anything. The UMI Benge horns were not the "best".
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Dieter Z
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to have a UMI Benge Piccolo trumpet which played rather well. And I still have a UMI Benge C trumpet, which plays and sound great without using alternative fingering.

In contrary, I briefly had a Benge 3, which I helped selling for a friend. Though fun to play, it had extremely loose slotting and you really had to make sure you hit the center off the note, otherwise you could be out of tune. Vale compression was good. I am sure that's not how it should have played.
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When UMI acquired the Benge name, they did NOT acquire the Benge bell mandrels (Zig Kanstul acquired the Benge tooling/mandrels), so the UMI Benge horns were a UMI design. Tweaking a UMI Benge would not result in a horn that plays like the "real deal." If you want something that plays like a Benge, consider getting a Benge, or one of the Kanstul made horns that were built using the Benge tooling and bell mandrels. For example, the Kanstul 1000 or 1001 (which are like the Benge 3X and 3X+) or one of the Burbank horns that Kanstul made.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, no...inferior materials and quality control have given the USA models the reputation of anti-Benges!
I've only tried one (early model) and while it wasn't terrible, most definitely was not anywhere near the real deal.
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've owned several UMI instruments and while they are not necessarily bad, they just don't play the same as the previous models of that brand (Conn, King, Benge).

For example, the Benge 90B is a nice, sturdy Bach-like horn which is an affordable instrument, but is in no way similar to a 3X. I actually like the King 2055 Silver Flair, but it is not the HN White/KMI 1055.

Your mileage may vary.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregplo wrote:
When UMI acquired the Benge name, they did NOT acquire the Benge bell mandrels (Zig Kanstul acquired the Benge tooling/mandrels), so the UMI Benge horns were a UMI design. Tweaking a UMI Benge would not result in a horn that plays like the "real deal." If you want something that plays like a Benge, consider getting a Benge, or one of the Kanstul made horns that were built using the Benge tooling and bell mandrels. For example, the Kanstul 1000 or 1001 (which are like the Benge 3X and 3X+) or one of the Burbank horns that Kanstul made.


Greg,
I'm curious as to your source for this info. I've heard it elsewhere and I'm doubtful about it, because King Musical Instruments owned Benge (pre-UMI) and made the decision to close the Anaheim factory and move production to the Eastlake, OH factory. Why would they let go of the tooling when they intended to continue production of Benge? At that point in time, Benge was still a good-selling horn.

I've played and worked on a number of the Eastlake horns and they are OK as far as I could tell. Not exactly the same for sure, especially the valve section, which more closely resembles a King.

Best,
-Lionel
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
gregplo wrote:
When UMI acquired the Benge name, they did NOT acquire the Benge bell mandrels (Zig Kanstul acquired the Benge tooling/mandrels), so the UMI Benge horns were a UMI design. Tweaking a UMI Benge would not result in a horn that plays like the "real deal." If you want something that plays like a Benge, consider getting a Benge, or one of the Kanstul made horns that were built using the Benge tooling and bell mandrels. For example, the Kanstul 1000 or 1001 (which are like the Benge 3X and 3X+) or one of the Burbank horns that Kanstul made.


Greg,
I'm curious as to your source for this info. I've heard it elsewhere and I'm doubtful about it, because King Musical Instruments owned Benge (pre-UMI) and made the decision to close the Anaheim factory and move production to the Eastlake, OH factory. Why would they let go of the tooling when they intended to continue production of Benge? At that point in time, Benge was still a good-selling horn.

I've played and worked on a number of the Eastlake horns and they are OK as far as I could tell. Not exactly the same for sure, especially the valve section, which more closely resembles a King.

Best,
-Lionel


I got my information here on TH, from Kanstul, and from a UMI Rep I asked many years ago. When Benge was sold, most if not all the tooling, and all of the Bell Mandrels were left behind and Zig Kanstul bought them.
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Why would they let go of the tooling when they intended to continue production of Benge?

gregplo wrote:
When Benge was sold, most if not all the tooling, and all of the Bell Mandrels were left behind and Zig Kanstul bought them.

I remember reading on TH years ago about some shady lease deal- not necessarily a "purchase." This is not meant to smear anyone's name or motive, but do a search and you may find a post from a much better authority (or two).
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


I've played and worked on a number of the Eastlake horns and they are OK as far as I could tell. Not exactly the same for sure, especially the valve section, which more closely resembles a King.


Depends on the model. I have a 7X and a 90C.

The 7X valve block appears to be an exact copy of the real Benges. The bell rings like a Benge, top and bottom caps and finger buttons the same size and threading as Benge. The valves needed to be lapped and the mouthpiece gap reset. (It was like it never had the final lapping.) It now plays nicely and sounds and feels like a Benge.

The 90 C uses a mix of Benge sized parts on a King valve block. So the pistons are the same diameter, top caps and finger buttons are the same size and thread but the bottom valve caps are King size and threads. The 90C was designed to compete with the Bach Strad so it plays nothing like a real Benge. (Same thing with the 90B). The sound does compare well with a good Bach.
(It also needed tinkering with before it played well - mainly alignment. Great valves.)

UMI also produced some 3X or 3X+ models with the same valve block set up as the 90B and 90C. I have not played those.

UMI trumpets from this period should be considered trumpet "Kits" - some rework will probably be required. The designs seem well done - just the assembly had problems.

These are only a good deal if you can purchase at an attractive price and have the ability to set gaps and do your own alignments, fix water keyhole burrs etc.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read and it makes sense that UMI bought Benge and other brands names without acquiring their parts or tooling in order to control the market competition. It is purely a business strategy. The intent is usually to dominate the market with their existing models.

Lots of us are counting on BAC to break that mold and bring back some of Kanstul's better known products. 😉 But before a company can do that kind of thing, the reality is that they need to insure their own survival in business. Such is the reality of human endeavors!
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This provides some good background:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhead/Benge.html
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an opportunity to play a friend's Burbank 3s a couple of days ago. Holy smoke. If it was for sale I would have bought it on the spot.

He claims it was one of the last made under that name. Given when he acquired it, that jives with the history posted above.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huntman10 wrote:
I have read and it makes sense that UMI bought Benge and other brands names without acquiring their parts or tooling in order to control the market competition. It is purely a business strategy. The intent is usually to dominate the market with their existing models.

Lots of us are counting on BAC to break that mold and bring back some of Kanstul's better known products. 😉 But before a company can do that kind of thing, the reality is that they need to insure their own survival in business. Such is the reality of human endeavors!


BAC currently offers "The Benge Trumpet" but I don't have any knowledge of the authenticity or experience with the horn.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I intend to replace my UMI Benge piccolo as soon as I can afford to. Woof!
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a Benge pocket trumpet in 1996. Really nice horn. I still have it. Maybe there are build issues but it's versatility and sound quality is surprising.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tooling:

Tools wear out. They are expensive to move/ship. Not only the overland cost, but gathering, cataloging, packing/unpacking, etc. When B.A.C. acquired what remained of Kanstul's tooling, machinery and parts, they apparently got everything into trucks as quickly as possible and headed out of California. I have heard that most of the tools and parts weren't even identified or cataloged. Is it a wonder that it is taking them so long to put those tools to good use?

I imagine that UMI had no desire to deal with old tooling they would soon need to replace, anyway. They did, however, take the parts assemblies and most of the parts left in Fullerton after production ceased. They used these in the beginning of Ohio production to train their new work force. Those early horns have LA serial numbers (5-digit), even though they aren't LA horns, per se.

Sources: Byron Autrey (R.I.P.), Zig Kanstul (R.I.P.), Jack Kanstul, Flip Oakes, Brian Douglas (pure, but reasonable speculation).
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, mandrels and other tools wear out, but I find it hard to believe that UMI didn't at least take some mandrels to copy and go on w/production. The later horns are out there, so the mandrel taper came from somewhere!
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a concise history here on TH:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155220&highlight=umi+benge
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BigE
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The kind of look like the old Benge but they are not. They are decent/good horns in there own right just not a true classic Benge.

My Benge was a real nice solid player with a hint of Benge to the sound. I still consider them a great horn just review it on its own merits.
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