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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:02 pm Post subject: UMI Benge? |
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Has anyone had any experience with UMI Benge trumpets? I understand that they're not great, compared to a "proper Benge" but can they be "optimized" or "blueprinted" or whatever to make them play like the real deal? Asking for a friend... _________________ Kevin |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: UMI Benge? |
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kevin_soda wrote: | Has anyone had any experience with UMI Benge trumpets? I understand that they're not great, compared to a "proper Benge" but can they be "optimized" or "blueprinted" or whatever to make them play like the real deal? Asking for a friend... |
I've only encountered one. It played okay. The lead pipe was soldered (or bent) out of line with the bottom tube, so the tuning slide was always under stress. The best Benge will outplay almost anything. The UMI Benge horns were not the "best". _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:43 am Post subject: |
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I used to have a UMI Benge Piccolo trumpet which played rather well. And I still have a UMI Benge C trumpet, which plays and sound great without using alternative fingering.
In contrary, I briefly had a Benge 3, which I helped selling for a friend. Though fun to play, it had extremely loose slotting and you really had to make sure you hit the center off the note, otherwise you could be out of tune. Vale compression was good. I am sure that's not how it should have played. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 504 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:04 am Post subject: |
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When UMI acquired the Benge name, they did NOT acquire the Benge bell mandrels (Zig Kanstul acquired the Benge tooling/mandrels), so the UMI Benge horns were a UMI design. Tweaking a UMI Benge would not result in a horn that plays like the "real deal." If you want something that plays like a Benge, consider getting a Benge, or one of the Kanstul made horns that were built using the Benge tooling and bell mandrels. For example, the Kanstul 1000 or 1001 (which are like the Benge 3X and 3X+) or one of the Burbank horns that Kanstul made. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, no...inferior materials and quality control have given the USA models the reputation of anti-Benges!
I've only tried one (early model) and while it wasn't terrible, most definitely was not anywhere near the real deal. |
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F.E. Olds Nut Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 343 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:57 am Post subject: |
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I've owned several UMI instruments and while they are not necessarily bad, they just don't play the same as the previous models of that brand (Conn, King, Benge).
For example, the Benge 90B is a nice, sturdy Bach-like horn which is an affordable instrument, but is in no way similar to a 3X. I actually like the King 2055 Silver Flair, but it is not the HN White/KMI 1055.
Your mileage may vary. _________________ Del Quadro "The Mother" |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:24 am Post subject: |
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gregplo wrote: | When UMI acquired the Benge name, they did NOT acquire the Benge bell mandrels (Zig Kanstul acquired the Benge tooling/mandrels), so the UMI Benge horns were a UMI design. Tweaking a UMI Benge would not result in a horn that plays like the "real deal." If you want something that plays like a Benge, consider getting a Benge, or one of the Kanstul made horns that were built using the Benge tooling and bell mandrels. For example, the Kanstul 1000 or 1001 (which are like the Benge 3X and 3X+) or one of the Burbank horns that Kanstul made. |
Greg,
I'm curious as to your source for this info. I've heard it elsewhere and I'm doubtful about it, because King Musical Instruments owned Benge (pre-UMI) and made the decision to close the Anaheim factory and move production to the Eastlake, OH factory. Why would they let go of the tooling when they intended to continue production of Benge? At that point in time, Benge was still a good-selling horn.
I've played and worked on a number of the Eastlake horns and they are OK as far as I could tell. Not exactly the same for sure, especially the valve section, which more closely resembles a King.
Best,
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 504 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:12 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | gregplo wrote: | When UMI acquired the Benge name, they did NOT acquire the Benge bell mandrels (Zig Kanstul acquired the Benge tooling/mandrels), so the UMI Benge horns were a UMI design. Tweaking a UMI Benge would not result in a horn that plays like the "real deal." If you want something that plays like a Benge, consider getting a Benge, or one of the Kanstul made horns that were built using the Benge tooling and bell mandrels. For example, the Kanstul 1000 or 1001 (which are like the Benge 3X and 3X+) or one of the Burbank horns that Kanstul made. |
Greg,
I'm curious as to your source for this info. I've heard it elsewhere and I'm doubtful about it, because King Musical Instruments owned Benge (pre-UMI) and made the decision to close the Anaheim factory and move production to the Eastlake, OH factory. Why would they let go of the tooling when they intended to continue production of Benge? At that point in time, Benge was still a good-selling horn.
I've played and worked on a number of the Eastlake horns and they are OK as far as I could tell. Not exactly the same for sure, especially the valve section, which more closely resembles a King.
Best,
-Lionel |
I got my information here on TH, from Kanstul, and from a UMI Rep I asked many years ago. When Benge was sold, most if not all the tooling, and all of the Bell Mandrels were left behind and Zig Kanstul bought them. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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AndyDavids Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2020 Posts: 176
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:00 am Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | Why would they let go of the tooling when they intended to continue production of Benge? |
gregplo wrote: | When Benge was sold, most if not all the tooling, and all of the Bell Mandrels were left behind and Zig Kanstul bought them. |
I remember reading on TH years ago about some shady lease deal- not necessarily a "purchase." This is not meant to smear anyone's name or motive, but do a search and you may find a post from a much better authority (or two). |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1803 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I've played and worked on a number of the Eastlake horns and they are OK as far as I could tell. Not exactly the same for sure, especially the valve section, which more closely resembles a King.
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Depends on the model. I have a 7X and a 90C.
The 7X valve block appears to be an exact copy of the real Benges. The bell rings like a Benge, top and bottom caps and finger buttons the same size and threading as Benge. The valves needed to be lapped and the mouthpiece gap reset. (It was like it never had the final lapping.) It now plays nicely and sounds and feels like a Benge.
The 90 C uses a mix of Benge sized parts on a King valve block. So the pistons are the same diameter, top caps and finger buttons are the same size and thread but the bottom valve caps are King size and threads. The 90C was designed to compete with the Bach Strad so it plays nothing like a real Benge. (Same thing with the 90B). The sound does compare well with a good Bach.
(It also needed tinkering with before it played well - mainly alignment. Great valves.)
UMI also produced some 3X or 3X+ models with the same valve block set up as the 90B and 90C. I have not played those.
UMI trumpets from this period should be considered trumpet "Kits" - some rework will probably be required. The designs seem well done - just the assembly had problems.
These are only a good deal if you can purchase at an attractive price and have the ability to set gaps and do your own alignments, fix water keyhole burrs etc. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 672 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:31 am Post subject: |
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I have read and it makes sense that UMI bought Benge and other brands names without acquiring their parts or tooling in order to control the market competition. It is purely a business strategy. The intent is usually to dominate the market with their existing models.
Lots of us are counting on BAC to break that mold and bring back some of Kanstul's better known products. 😉 But before a company can do that kind of thing, the reality is that they need to insure their own survival in business. Such is the reality of human endeavors! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 504 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:34 am Post subject: |
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This provides some good background:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhead/Benge.html _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:06 am Post subject: |
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I had an opportunity to play a friend's Burbank 3s a couple of days ago. Holy smoke. If it was for sale I would have bought it on the spot.
He claims it was one of the last made under that name. Given when he acquired it, that jives with the history posted above. |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | I have read and it makes sense that UMI bought Benge and other brands names without acquiring their parts or tooling in order to control the market competition. It is purely a business strategy. The intent is usually to dominate the market with their existing models.
Lots of us are counting on BAC to break that mold and bring back some of Kanstul's better known products. 😉 But before a company can do that kind of thing, the reality is that they need to insure their own survival in business. Such is the reality of human endeavors! |
BAC currently offers "The Benge Trumpet" but I don't have any knowledge of the authenticity or experience with the horn. _________________ Kevin |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2149 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I intend to replace my UMI Benge piccolo as soon as I can afford to. Woof! _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1465 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I bought a Benge pocket trumpet in 1996. Really nice horn. I still have it. Maybe there are build issues but it's versatility and sound quality is surprising. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:17 am Post subject: |
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Tooling:
Tools wear out. They are expensive to move/ship. Not only the overland cost, but gathering, cataloging, packing/unpacking, etc. When B.A.C. acquired what remained of Kanstul's tooling, machinery and parts, they apparently got everything into trucks as quickly as possible and headed out of California. I have heard that most of the tools and parts weren't even identified or cataloged. Is it a wonder that it is taking them so long to put those tools to good use?
I imagine that UMI had no desire to deal with old tooling they would soon need to replace, anyway. They did, however, take the parts assemblies and most of the parts left in Fullerton after production ceased. They used these in the beginning of Ohio production to train their new work force. Those early horns have LA serial numbers (5-digit), even though they aren't LA horns, per se.
Sources: Byron Autrey (R.I.P.), Zig Kanstul (R.I.P.), Jack Kanstul, Flip Oakes, Brian Douglas (pure, but reasonable speculation). _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Yes, mandrels and other tools wear out, but I find it hard to believe that UMI didn't at least take some mandrels to copy and go on w/production. The later horns are out there, so the mandrel taper came from somewhere! _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 504 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a concise history here on TH:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155220&highlight=umi+benge _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Edwards Gen II
P. Mauriat PMT-75 (Ti/Copper)
Conn 61B
Benge 90B
Conn 80B LB
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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BigE Regular Member
Joined: 22 Mar 2022 Posts: 11
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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The kind of look like the old Benge but they are not. They are decent/good horns in there own right just not a true classic Benge.
My Benge was a real nice solid player with a hint of Benge to the sound. I still consider them a great horn just review it on its own merits. |
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