Cornet from a trumpet player perspective denis wick 4B

[kerouack]

Hello,
I am playing trumpet all my life. I am playing 20 years a “big” horn , a English eclipse largue Red Bell. I play it with a mouthpiece similar to a bach 3C.

I friend let me an Old Special Cornet, it came with a blessing 7C mouthpiece. I liked the feel of a Cornet, may be the sound, or cause is shorter, or just to change ? Not sure. I bought a Real Cornet mouthpiece a Denis wick 4B., of course this is a different thing.

I read people who say that if you are not going to play a Cornet with a very deep V shape mouthpiece, then why to play cornet and not a trumpet.. I don’t know if there is people playing a Cornet with a mouthpiece with a typical trumpet C cup, or deeper, like could be a bach 3B mouthpiece, and if it make sense for them to use a cornet instead of a trumpet. And what do you think is the difference.
I play jazz and modern music, I hear videos of people playing a cornet with a British deep V shape Denis wick style playing clásicas music , but I don’t see people playing modern music with it, particularly Prhasing in high register.

I know Ron Miles, but others I don’t think they use Denis wick style mouthpieces.

[kehaulani]

This is kind of a broad answer, but I think you should play what is comfortable and sounds best to you. And what you can handle. It doesn't matter if you play on a mouthpiece that, in principle, gives you the best sound but which, in practice, you can't handle.

I have been playing a Curry 5VC. The sound was theoretically right but I just couldn't get comfortable with it. Too deep? Too large bore? I don't know. So, I'm checking out some others.

I changed, recently, to an ACB Heim H2 Vintage, which is somewhat V shaped but is not deep. A cornet take on Miles' mouthpiece with a "vintage" shape. We'll see.

FWIW, two role models I use are Tommy Peltier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK1M4520oJY

and Nat Adderly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH0C8LSE4is

Hope you get better answers than that. Good luck.
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Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
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[JazzFluegel]

I use a CONN 9A Artist Coprion for jazz combo gigs (when not using the Fluegelhorn) and with church choir. I also usually use a Curry 5VC for the timbre it creates. But I also have a couple of Marcinkiewicz mpcs and a JetTone Al Hirt; it will change the timbre enough to blend with trumpets or in other brass combos. Find what works for you.
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NOW, Keith Allen Pintar
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Kanstul 1525 FL
1962 Conn 9A Artist Coprion
1948 Conn NY Symphony 12B Coprion

[kerouack]

The point for me is cause I have a good trumpet and always played trumpet.
If to make a cornet work for me I need to use a Bach 3C mouthpiece and then the Cornet sound almost the same as the trumpet, then is not to worth it buying a Pro Cornet.... (cause I will have to return the Cornet to my friend and I am not a person who collect horns, that's not my motivation).

I could also find something " in between " the Denis Wick 4B and a Bach 3C and what happens in my feeling, playability, and sound...

Of course this is different for someone who just play Cornet, the point for me is if it is worth it to change from trumpet to Cornet, I am also not interested in playing both, I am a "one horn one mpc guy".

Another question would be, is there anyone playing jazz phrasing in high register, no super mega high, but high (around high C), and improvising with a Denis Wick 4B style mouthpiece? Cause I only see people playing classical with that style mpc for now...

Thank you

[Subtropical and Subpar]

For me part of the fun of playing cornet is the ability to plug in different mouthpieces to get different timbres. My cornet, a Conn Connstellation short model, travels with four mouthpieces. In order of increasing cup depth: a Schilke 14a4X (cornet shank), a Bach 1C, a Monette B11, and a Yamaha David King. The Schilke creates a nice trad jazz sound, the Bach 1C lets me blend with trumpets but I also use it to cover cornet parts in arrangements that have both trumpet and cornet parts, the Monette has that rich, warm tone we associate with old recordings of Arban songs, and the Yamaha pretty much turns my Connie into a flugelhorn. Honestly, I don't worry too much about "true" cornet mouthpieces versus "trumpet-style" cornet mouthpieces. If the mouthpiece feels good, does what you want it to, sounds how you want it to, and pleases the other musician(s) and audience(s) you interact with, what else matters?
_________________
1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel

[Andy Cooper]

A place to start - Warburton 3XD or 4XD top and the #6 backbore.
https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/

Most Olds cornets are .468 bore and play fairly open. The Warburton #6 backbore is a little tighter than a Bach #10. The Warburton XD cup sort of a cornetish - V shaped not C cup - but not deep like a Wick.

If you play this combination you are unlikely to sound like a Bach Strad trumpet with a 3C - but I don't know how it would compare your Eclipse with a Red Bell.

[kerouack]

Thank you.

“For me part of the fun of playing cornet is the ability to plug in different mouthpieces to get different timbres“.
You can not do that with a trumpet ?



Thank you Andy, I can not find Denis wick 4B in that comparator.

[JazzFluegel]

[ajwan]

I play on a Besson Sovereign BE928.

My journey through cornet mouthpieces took me through the following with the goal of settling on just one mouthpiece:

Denis Wick 4B
Back 3D
Curry 5VC
Curry 8VC
Alliance 3B (included with my Besson Sovereign)

Sigh...unfortunately, I've come to the same conclusion as many others have come to which is the need to use more than one mouthpiece depending on the context of the music and blending with your section.

All of the mouthpieces I mention have give-take thing with them.

In terms of "darkness" "mellowness", I would have to say the denis wick and alliance 3B falls in this category with a somewhat more airy/wooliness for the alliance. This seems about right as the bores on these two are on the larger side large with the alliance having the deepest cup and the most gradual transition to the throat area.

The two Curry VCs I have were marketed as having a "vintage" cornet cup design (hence the "VC"). I've found their overall timbre to be somewhat brighter than the dennis/alliance, especially when I crank up the volume. But between mp and mf volumes, the timbres are what I'd consider well within a typical "cornet" sound. I do find it easier to play at the higher registers using both the 5VC and 8VC. The somewhat brighter sound of the 5VC/8VC (compared to the dennis wick/alliance) and an easier time getting above-staff notes could be a result of the cup design as I find the transition from the cup to the through to the throat be more squared-off than the denis wick/alliance. I can't verify but the two VC Currys I have appear to have a marginally narrower throat than the Alliance/Denis Wick.

The Bach 3D rarely comes out but only for me to blend with trumpets in my sections on pieces requiring more "sizzle" if you can say. It has by far the narrowest throat of all the mouthpieces I own. I don't quite like the sound produced with the 3D and my horn at all, but do it for the reasons mentioned when needed. Of course it's easy to push out higher-register notes with this one.

In the end, I've settled on the Curry 5VC, Alliance 3B, and Bach 3D, with up to 80% of my time spent on the Curry 5VC given what I'd consider to be a pretty decent combination of tonality/darkness and range. The smaller cup diameter on the 8VC made it even easier to hit higher notes than the 5VC but sacrificing flexibility in the process. I do like the darkness of the 4B/Alliance3B when the need calls for it.

Yeah, trying out mouthpieces can become an expensive endeavor. I suppose it's a necessary evil as it's mostly not feasible to audition them first.

Cheers,
Andrew
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Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)

[ajwan]

A question I have for you all. There are trumpet type mouthpieces that you can fit onto a cornet (i.e., Bach). But is the reverse true and ever used (i.e., cornet type mouthpieces made for a trumpet)?
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Besson Sovereign BE928 (Germany)

[Shifty]

[nieuwguyski]

[iiipopes]

Yes, this thread is a few months old. After the last post, towards the end of last year, I was able to acquire a 921 "Globe Stamp" B&H cornet in superlative condition for being 45+ years old. My tech made sure it was good to go, and I have been playing it ever since.

Now, to the mouthpiece. I'm one of the lucky ones who plays a Wick 4B because it fits me, and I like its tone and other characteristics, not just because it is the "standard." On trumpet, from the late '70's, I played a Bach 3C. In later years I switched to a Bach 3C/#76 backbore to help me with breath management.

The mouthpiece that came with the cornet is a GEWA 1 1/2 C. This mouthpiece is made by Lausman CNC scanned from a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2 C. When you compare the traces of a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2 C to a Selmer 3C, you will see they are almost identical in width, with the 1 1/2 C having a slightly sharper inner edge and slightly deeper cup. I can vouch that it feels almost identical to my Selmer 3C and my 3C/#76. This is different from a Selmer 1 1/2 C.

So if you play a 3C or similar mouthpiece, I would start on cornet with its analog in the cornet world, the Wick 4B. Some say the Wick 4B rim is a little flat and can be uncomfortable and a little stuffy. But it gives the typical tone for a B&H/Besson cornet in a BBB, so you have a perspective of tone. They are common, available used, and this will give you a starting point for a cornet mouthpiece safari.

Oh - and drop the back of the tongue and think more of an "Oh" instead of an "Ah" to help mellow the cornet tone.
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