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Big C Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2018 Posts: 53 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:12 pm Post subject: Student horn's sticky valves: What to do? |
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Didn't know whether to put this here, or on the "Horns" forum. Will start here.
My daughter recently started trumpet! (See thread below and feel free to chime in.) I got her a new horn. It's a Blessing brand student horn ($500 approx. value). It sounds pretty nice but the valve action is terrible (compared to my Eterna Severinsen and my old mid-line cornet). Compounding the problem is that her hands are tiny and she struggles to get her fingertips right on top of the valves. (Valves stick a lot less when I play it, but still... )
What to do? Will the valves loosen up over time? Would a certain valve oil be better? Is there anything a repair shop can do? Any other suggestions?
I wouldn't even be writing this, were the problem not so severe as to hamper her playing. Okay, this isn't the world's greatest horn, but it should be good enough to where the valves come back up w/o sticking as much as they do. _________________ '78 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
'59 Reynolds Argenta cornet
Last edited by Big C on Sat May 14, 2022 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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First, throw out the bottle of Blue Juice in the case.
A thorough cleaning is probably the best solution. A trip to the shop and a cleaning not only get the horn clean, it probably solves the valve issue.
Use a good valve oil - Yamaha, Hetman, Ultra Pure. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 985 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Given that you're a trumpet player yourself, I trust you've tried applying more valve oil and/or using a different type of valve oil (you did clean the valves before applying a different oil right?). If the valves still stick after that, and given that it's a brand new horn, I'd recommend taking it back to the store and have them fix it under warranty. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Student horn's sticky valves: What to do? |
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Do the valves on YOUR horn work ok when she plays it?
Regarding valve oil, I use a combination of petroleum based oil (Al Cass) and drug store Mineral Oil (clear and unscented, NOT baby oil).
First put a few drops of Mineral Oil on the pistons with finger or Q-tip, and then insert the piston in the valve casing - the action will be too slow.
Next, add drop-by-drop of regular trumpet petroleum valve oil onto each piston until good valve action is reached.
The heavier Mineral Oil adheres better to the piston surface and maintains the oil film to prevent metal-on-metal rubbing and sticking. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Big C Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2018 Posts: 53 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies, folks! Updates...
Crazy Finn: Ironically, I have a bottle of Blue Juice in my case (which I use) and we use Ultra Pure on hers because that was what came with the horn. I might try washing the horn, but it is still really new: no gunk or anything in the caps that screw onto the bottoms of the valve casings.
Stuartissimo: I tried more oil, but not yet a different oil. If I try a different one besides Ultra Pure, got a recommendation? As far as taking it back to the shop, I bought it on Amazon last year. Okay, I am now a living example of why it's better to patronize one's local shop.
JayKosta: Yes, when she plays my horn, the valves stick less than on hers (but probably still a bit... striking angle is important). I may try the mineral oil + petroleum valve oil idea; that is a "pro tip". How often do you do that? Are my Blue Juice and her Ultra Pure both petroleum-based oils? I dunno, it just seems like a student horn's valves should be less labor-intensive.
Any other thoughts, keep 'em coming: Much appreciated! _________________ '78 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
'59 Reynolds Argenta cornet
Last edited by Big C on Sat May 14, 2022 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience when striking angle is involved there is a good chance the valves are worn. If worn valves are responsible what happens is that the oil film is broken due to poorly fitting valves moving sideways in the casing.
What has helped me in my case is using a thicker valve oil formulated for “vintage” valves. I found this solution after YourBrass recommended it to me after he examined my trumpet. I use Berp Bio Oil on that horn now.
You might want to try one of the thicker valve oils to see if it helps.
Edit: I missed that the issue is on a new(er) horn. Exchange the phrase “loosely fitted” for “worn” and my points might still be valid.
Last edited by LittleRusty on Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 985 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Big C wrote: | Stuartissimo: I tried more oil, but not yet a different oil. If I try a different one besides Ultra Pure, got a recommendation? As far as taking it back to the shop, I bought it on Amazon last year. Okay, I am now a living example of why it's better to patronize one's local shop. |
Not an expert on valve oils so can't help you, sorry. If you have a different valve oil in house already then you might as well try that. It does strike me as a little odd that the valves would get sticky in less than a year though, especially since you're a trumpet player yourself (so I assume you know the basics of oiling, cleaning, etc.). Were the valves fine when you just got the horn, or were they always problematic?
Given that warranty isn't an option, a trip to a tech is probably your best bet. It's pretty hard to assess the problem without seeing the horn in question. It could be anything from assymetric valve wear or a bent/dented casing (was the instrument dropped at any time?), to simply cheap materials or a poorly constructed trumpet. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5227 Location: ca.
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:52 am Post subject: |
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What did your tech say when he looked it over. ?
_________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:36 am Post subject: |
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stuartissimo wrote: | (you did clean the valves before applying a different oil right?). |
And the casings! |
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Rapier232 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 1323 Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Lighter Fluid (cigarettes) works well to remove old oil from the valves and casings. It evaporates quite quickly, so you can apply any new/different oil straight away. _________________ "Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9024 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Rapier232 wrote: | Lighter Fluid (cigarettes) works well to remove old oil from the valves and casings. It evaporates quite quickly, so you can apply any new/different oil straight away. |
How much do you put on and don't you have to be really careful when you light it? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Big C wrote: | Thanks for the replies, folks! Updates...
Crazy Finn: Ironically, I have a bottle of Blue Juice in my case (which I use) and we use Ultra Pure on hers because that was what came with the horn. I might try washing the horn, but it is still really new: no gunk or anything in the caps that screw onto the bottoms of the valve casings.
Stuartissimo: I tried more oil, but not yet a different oil. If I try a different one besides Ultra Pure, got a recommendation? As far as taking it back to the shop, I bought it on Amazon last year. Okay, I am now a living example of why it's better to patronize one's local shop.
JayKosta: Yes, when she plays my horn, the valves stick less than on hers (but probably still a bit... striking angle is important). I may try the mineral oil + petroleum valve oil idea; that is a "pro tip". How often do you do that? Are my Blue Juice and her Ultra Pure both petroleum-based oils? I dunno, it just seems like a student horn's valves should be less labor-intensive.
Any other thoughts, keep 'em coming: Much appreciated! |
Valve oils often don't mix well together and any time one switches a thorough cleaning is necessary.
Blue Juice is the king of not mixing well with others, one reason it's a bad choice for students who sometimes do that. It if it works for you, that's good. I don't have many positive experiences with it.
Blue Juice is - I think petroleum based - but I admit, I don't know for sure and they don't have a manufacturer website that I can find quickly.
Ultra Pure is a synthetic oil, so different formulation. The others I listed as good: Yamaha and Hetman - are also synthetic.
I think that these are a little inadequate as labels if you dig really hard down through the chemistry, but I don't, so I just go with the broad categories that I've heard discussed. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9024 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Big C, I know one of Quinn the Eskimo's technicians and they say that they use BERP. Since they wrote that, I changed to it and it's been working fine. I only changed because it lasts longer, but I have used Herman's for a long time with no problems. An advantage of Hetman is that the oil comes in several grades. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | Blue Juice is - I think petroleum based - but I admit, I don't know for sure and they don't have a manufacturer website that I can find quickly. |
“Blue Juice Valve Oil is a light, fast, refined petroleum product…”
Heid Music website
There is nothing special about the linked page, it is not the manufacturer’s page, other than it agrees with many others I found in a quick search. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | There is nothing special about the linked page, it is not the manufacturer’s page, other than it agrees with many others I found in a quick search. |
Thanks, guess I could have put in an extra 30 seconds of work. It was Blue Juice, I was reluctant to do so. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12663 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | There is nothing special about the linked page, it is not the manufacturer’s page, other than it agrees with many others I found in a quick search. |
Thanks, guess I could have put in an extra 30 seconds of work. It was Blue Juice, I was reluctant to do so. |
One of my few uses. |
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Big C Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2018 Posts: 53 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2022 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks folks. Sounds like my next move is to wash out the horn and try a different valve oil, perhaps a thicker one (I see Yamaha and Hetson come in different viscosities.).
As best I can remember, I have always used just water and a soft cloth to flush out my trumpet, including pistons and casings. But perhaps I should use water with Dawn to remove the previous oil, eh?
I'm not sure if the lighter fluid tip was for real or not, but I don't think I'm going to try it. _________________ '78 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
'59 Reynolds Argenta cornet |
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