Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 4:42 pm Post subject: Callet Jazz Flugel or something else?
Hi all,
Long time, no post, but I need some hive mind input.
I'm in the process of retiring to flugel (jazz soloist) and looking for something that can be my only instrument. Looking for something nimble, with some brightness and projection when needed so I don't have to move on to trumpet - mainly for smaller group work and soloing etc. I'm not into the super dark flugel sound. A magic wand would have me sounding like Clark Terry wailing over the big band or weaving in and around Bob Brookmeyer :).
I actually don't mind the sound of a trumpet mouthpiece in flugel but it screws too much with the feel and intonation for me to ever get comfortable. Of course, I'll experiment with some shallower flugel pieces. Actually, a cornet mouthpiece in a small shank flugel is also close to to what I'm after but still alters the blow and feel too much for me.
Thinking a larger bore flugel could be one option and the Callet Jazz is appealing but there's not too much info around. Any opinions on it?
I'm not married to the large bore idea but thought it might help a bit with some volume and projection when "needed". I've played a few of the old Getzens (including the 4-valve) and they seemed OK, maybe a bit bland but perhaps that's the price of large bore. I've also played and loved an old Yamaha 635t that had many of the qualities I liked, ie a bit brighter, good player feedback if not total volume, quick to speak, intonation acceptable.
In my collection of over 50 brass instruments, I own 13 flugelhorns (15 if you count the Finke kuhlohorn and the circular flugelhorn with Vienna valves made for me by Robb Stewart), so I have a few thoughts regarding your inquiry.
Disclaimer: I actually tried weaving in and around Bob Brookmeyer once, but all it got me was a court order to maintain a distance of at least 200 yards from Bob Brookmeyer at all times (rimshot).
I'm not sold on the idea that a large bore flugelhorn is the only way to get more volume and projection when needed, but I favor medium or ML bore trumpets so I may be biased. I have not had an opportunity to try the Callet Jazz flugel.
I recently acquired a Kanstul-made French Besson Laureate, which is virtually the same horn as the Kanstul Model 1025. I think it has a very mellow, rich core (not sure if that means it's "dark"), but it is Marvin Stamm's flugel of choice, and he makes it sound pretty nimble and bright. Here's a sample (his solo starts at 2:49):
Another horn I have is a Noblet (which is a stencil of a last generation Leblanc, which is in turn a stencil of a last generation 'pre-Direct Air' Courtois). It is surprisingly agile, with a sweet, light sound and good intonation. It is Mike Metheny's preferred 'ax'; here's a sample of how he sounds on it:
I actually have a Yamaha 635T (silver plated) which Charlie Melk restored (including a valve rebuild), but I find that it takes a bit too much work to play. I get worn out faster than normal when I play it (if that is a common characteristic, maybe that's why Yamaha discontinued it). I also have a 6310Z which I like a lot better -- it has a light, clear tone and is a very agile player. Here's a video of Bobby Shew himself playing his 8310Z (I tried that too, but I didn't feel it was a great improvement over my 6310z):
Another horn I like (and own) is the B&S Challenger II "Bronchon". It is a bit more 'trumpety' in sound quality, but is very nimble with great intonation. Here is a video sample (from a seller, but he does play the horn a bit):
Unfortunately, Buffet Crampon jacked the price way up once they acquired B&S. They are worth the money, but they are not the 'screaming deal' they once were.
By the way, I use a Curry FL-M with a custom rim (small Morse, large Morse, and French shank versions). It has a shallower cup providing a lighter tone and better endurance while still maintaining an authentic flugel sound.
Actually, now that I think about it, if your heart is set on a large bore flugel, you might try the Blessing Artist model (1541). I don't own one, but I tried a copper bell version in a music store and was pretty impressed (it felt very heavy, though). Red Rodney sounded like a monster on his (listen to his solo at 2:49):
Hey, great post, thanks for all that. I appreciate the input.
Of course, all those guys sound great and we're back to the player vs the horn stuff. Stamm's sound is great but obviously has some compression on the recording, Metheny is beautiful but a little darker than I would go for and Shew has that fluidity that appeals to me. I didn't enjoy the B&S as much but that could be mouthpiece, player, recording device etc (pretty artificial type of setting) and maybe the fact that the bell was directly at the mic. i'd still like to try it myself.
I am also not convinced that the large bore flugel is necessarily the way to go to get more volume and projection - just an idea at this stage. You are convincing me back towards just experimenting with the small bores again. Well done.
I have played the 6310z a number of times and actually preferred the 635t. The z felt tight to me but having said that I warmed to it and could probably adjust. I haven't tried the 8310z.
I have looked into the Curry FLM but haven't played one yet. The other option that seems to pop up is the Warburton shallow flugel piece, can't remember the numbers.
I guess I also ought to mention the current 'hot' manufacturers (none of which I own) -- Hub Van Laar, Adams, Inderbinen, and Schagerl. There are also some interesting niche makers like Martin Bohme and Scodwell. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
OK, here goes. I seem to be like you and prefer a somewhat more focused and clearer sound on both trumpet and flugel. While horns like the Inderbinen Wood are cool, I get tired of that very dark and broad sound fairly quickly.
So, take a look at Kühnl & Hoyer. Good horns, light and nimble (by my standards), good intonation and sound, fair prices. Hard to find in the US, I think.
The Yamaha 231 I had for many years is easy to play and has a good sound but intonation was tricky.
Since you don’t mention price range I’d strongly (!) suggest you check out the B&S FBX flugel. If I had the money (and the need) this would be my favorite horn at the moment. Besides all the musical qualities the FBX also sports excellent ergonomics and is one of the three or four flugels I can play for a while without my left hand starting to hurt. Big asset if you only want to play flugel.
Oh, as an afterthought. I’d like to try the Adams F5 but have never even seen one so far. Might fit the bill from the description. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Last edited by Brassnose on Sat May 07, 2022 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Have you considered hybrid horns like say, ACB’s Coppernicus? Or is that too trumpet-ish for your what you intend to use it for? _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
Schilke 1040 FL - This would be my first recommendation. I found it quite bright compared to other American flugelhorn, super build quality (as always), great ergonomics, and good intonation. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Good suggestions, thanks all. Naturally, I'd consider the Wild Thing as I play a WT trumpet and think it's fab (as far as any trumpet can be fab, ugh) I thought the WT Flugel was a dark player though, no? Then there's question of availability.
Always been Puje curious ...
Another option I'm considering is an Adams F1 with a Sterling Bell. Smaller bore and bell but might brighten up a bit when pushed but still be nice and flugel-y at lower volumes.
I did test the Adams F1 and would prefer the FBX or possibly the Schilke (good suggestion). The F1 sounds rather broad and dark-ish plus I found it hard to color the sound. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 6:59 am Post subject:
Of course everyone will have their own opinion, and it will naturally end with what they are playing now, because otherwise they'd be playing some other horn, no?
I went on my flugel safari some years back, and ended up wiuth a Conn Vintage One. There are really only a very few flugels I like better, and none anywhere near that price point.
I did not and do not like the large bore flugels. I don't like how they play, and don't like how any of them sound. Other than that...
The V1 has, in my view, a very traditional flugel-y sound, but it also can be used in a big band setting, where it can be heard. Within reason - it won't cut through a trumpet section playing blastissimo, but it will cut through saxes playing background figures.
For the same reason, I liked the Yamaha Shew, but felt the V1 moved even farther in that direction. I had a few moments with a Selmer Concept TT, which might have been even farther, but that's kind of moot since they are out of production.
I wanted to like the Kanstul horns - I really did - but they each had their own weaknesses, and the V1 had most of the strengths and few of the weaknesses.
Today, I would definitely try the new Schilkes (the 1970's era Schilke is an interesting instrument, but not much of a flugelhorn) and the new Yamaha 8315 which I have not played. Getzen claims to have come out with a small bore flugel I might try if one actually exists - sightings are kind of like Bigfoot. By the time you can check it out yourself, it's gone.
Last edited by Tom LeCompte on Sat May 07, 2022 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
I’ve never seen a Conn V1, but really like the Conn V1 trumpet and also like the 52B, so yes, check out Conn. From what you describe, it seems to have the same qualities that I like in the FBX.
The Shew is quite similar to the FBX but I found the FBX a little more flugely and also ergonomically better for me.
Like Tom I never warmed up to Kanstul horns. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
I once owned a Callet Jazz Flugel (serial number 164x). It was an amazing horn. Yes, .460 bore, very free blowing in all registers, and that pass-through design for the 3rd valve tubing is also visually striking and unique. It's pleasing to me that Callet horns are still available on occasion (don't know if they are still manufactured).
I sold all my brass instruments in 2009 when I thought I would never play again (a medical condition that I am now negotiating with, for cornet). But ... the one instrument I wish I could get back (from back then) is that Callet Jazz Flugelhorn. Nothing else felt like it, particularly not the Couesnon horns i was able to try. _________________ Vince Francis — Technical Writer
• Bass guitar player, comeback horn player
• Schilke C Cornet (A2C)
• Bach Bb Cornet (181ML Strad)
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9008 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 8:33 am Post subject:
I'm a little confused by your description of your wants. The examples you provide (and it's refreshing that someone is so detailed in their wants, so thank you) sound very much like flugelhorns to me. I was expecting, from your prior writing, an almost trumpet sound. But I hear flugelhorn, not trumpet.
So, I'll just say this. I have an Adams F-1, which I think will give you what you're looking for. A lot of the sound comes from your sound/mental concept and mouthpiece.
If you want trumpety, and save yourself money at the same time, there are some trumpet mouthpieces made by reputable makers that are to be played on trumpet but is intended to give you a flugelhorn vibe. I think Reeves has one and I think, at least, another maker has one too, but can't think f the name.
I've got one, but I've now got a flugelhorn, too, so don't need it. If you're curious, I'll sell it to you at a lark so you can try it. Just send me a PM. (And I didn't write the preceding to promote this. It is an afterthought.) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
There have been many good suggestions added to this thread. Conn Vintage One flugels are very nice (tried one). B&S FBX's are likely extremely nice. I've tried the Getzen 4895 Custom Reserve and the Edwards X-19 when I visited their factory in Elkhorn a while back, and of the two I preferred the Edwards (although the 4895 featured a new bronze valve block and had amazing valve action). I also tried the current Schilke flugel when they first came out, but wasn't too impressed by the tone. I must add, however, that the one I tried (in the tryout room at their Chicago-area facility) was a prototype with a very rough finish. It was likely a 'work in progress' at that point.
Vince Synchronicity wrote:
It's pleasing to me that Callet horns are still available on occasion (don't know if they are still manufactured).
I think they are still being manufactured; Lee Adams took over production of certain Callet models several years ago. Here's a link:
https://www.callet.com/category-s/120.htm
Another large bore flugel that is supposed to be exceptional is the Marcinkiewicz. I haven't tried one, but people rave about it, and it is a beauty. Sadly, all Marcinkiewicz instrument production has been put on hiatus (I believe Joe M. had a stroke).
kehaulani wrote:
If you want trumpety, and save yourself money at the same time, there are some trumpet mouthpieces made by reputable makers that are to be played on trumpet but is intended to give you a flugelhorn vibe. I think Reeves has one and I think, at least, another maker has one too, but can't think f the name.
The Curry TF is designed to do this. I use one with my kuhlohorn, and also my Puje (yeah, I've got one of those, too). Karl Hammond has also made this type of mouthpiece on a custom basis. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Sun May 08, 2022 12:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
Good suggestions, thanks all. Naturally, I'd consider the Wild Thing as I play a WT trumpet and think it's fab (as far as any trumpet can be fab, ugh) I thought the WT Flugel was a dark player though, no? Then there's question of availability.
This is getting very nerdy, quickly!
My experience with the Wild Thing Flugelhorn is that it is very responsive to mouthpiece changes, meaning that it can produce a wide range of sound with a corresponding range of mouthpieces. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 23 Aug 2002 Posts: 383 Location: St Augustine, FL
Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: flugels
My current flugel is the stomvi 4 valve version of the titan. Best playing flugel I've owned and I've owned many different brands. I had a callet jazz some years ago. Very open blow throughout and a great horn from the back row. The stomvi has similar qualities and a sweeter sound, imo. Great presence in the big band and it sounds amazing in church. Stomvi valves are amazing as well.
Truly worth checking out
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