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The Ultimate Eb Trumpet Thread


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Theshinytrumpet
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Joined: 09 Feb 2019
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Location: Rockford, Illinois

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 6:44 am    Post subject: The Ultimate Eb Trumpet Thread Reply with quote

Hi Folks,

Thank you to everyone for the positive early response. I hope that this becomes a very educational forum for those looking to add an Eb to their collection

I've spent too much time digging through this website on the hunt for good testimonies on Eb trumpets. They are in there, but I think it's time we organize our opinions to help those in the market for an Eb. As a member of this community for the past ten years, I have noticed that we have neglected a few topics that I think are valuable for those doing some research before investing in a new instrument.

If you own(or have owned) an Eb trumpet, please post the following information.

What is it? Brand, Model, Age, Configuration
How does it play? Intonation, tone qualities, quirks
Do you feel that it is a good value for money?
What else should someone in the market for an Eb know about this instrument?
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Last edited by Theshinytrumpet on Fri May 13, 2022 5:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Theshinytrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned three different Eb trumpets.

Schilke E3L from the early 2000s.
It was a great horn. It had different bells and slides for playing in Eb or D. The intonation, tone, and playing characteristics align with what you would expect from a Schilke. I sold it because I wanted to try other horns. I think think that it's a great value.

Bach Larson Conversion (very early)
This horn was fantastic, and I kind of regret selling it. It was a medium bore horn with a fixed bell. It was technically Eb/D but played significantly better in Eb. If you can find one, you can't go wrong. It was very resonant, in-tune, and had a beautiful core to the sound.

Schagerl Phoibe(2022)
Completely different to any Eb I have ever played. I just received it and I am going to really need some time to make this horn sing. You can feel the music in your hands with Schagerl products.
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Last edited by Theshinytrumpet on Fri May 13, 2022 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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benlewis
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha YTR-9636, current production, fixed long bell with "S" lead pipe

Plays like a great C trumpet. Intonation is as good as you are. No quirks I can discern.

On the pricier side, but much less than buying a bunch of cheaper horns, only to realize this is the one.

The fixed bell with slides is much more convenient to carry than having to schlep another bell; and the full-length Chicago C pipe eliminates the intonation and stability issues that tuning bell trumpets were intended to address.

HTH

Ben
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamaha 9610 Eb/D

Love this horn! Bought it secondhand, and is one of the last horns I’d consider replacing. It’s not as teutonic as an orchestral C trumpet (duh), but by using my opened up C trumpet mouthpiece, I can get pretty darn close.
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Shark01
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nltrumpet wrote:
Yamaha 9610 Eb/D

Love this horn! Bought it secondhand, and is one of the last horns I’d consider replacing. It’s not as teutonic as an orchestral C trumpet (duh), but by using my opened up C trumpet mouthpiece, I can get pretty darn close.


This is what I own as well. I agree that it is more of a soloist trumpet than a solid core orchestral one. It has a superb ringing sound that was the basis for what I wanted when I searched for a new Bb recently.

I really need to play it more often. The biggest problem for me with it is a lack of good music that fits into a comfortable range bracket.....and yes I’m too stupid to transpose music into that key.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Eb/D trumpet is a Selmer; bought it 1974. Nr 49793.
It has a very nice engraving - and is labelled Henri Selmer., Paris.
Intonation very good; You don´t have to fight it to play in tune. A pro friend found it way better than his Couesnon.
Another pro friend, former trumpet in the local Symphony Orchestra thought that it sounded even better with the D bugle.
Personally I find it easy to play with a full warm sound, not stuffy as some Eb horns, yet "trumpet - volountarily" up high.
I used it some years in a Brassband (UK style) making it sound like a soprano - so it is very versatile.
I use the original mouthpiece, Henri Selmer Pairs, 2 D.

Yes it´s old, the lacquer shows signs of wear but the valves are as good as new ones. Not used that much.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own two Eb Trumpets.

Yamaha 761 D/Eb

This horn is a short bell model and this particular horn is from sometime in the mid-1980's. Came with main, first and third slides in D and Eb.

I really light the character of this horn for lighter stuff. It's got a sweeter sound and can be very delicate when you want it. You can't lean on the dynamics much because it will break up so tt's not great in a large orchestra.

Slotting on the Eb side is very loose, so the pitch is rock solid on a good day and awful on a bad day. Written F#/G at the top of the staff does like to sit high.

It's a better horn on the D side. More core, more stable slotting, but still sweet with clean articulations. Blends with A piccolos amazingly well and is my goto for the lower parts of the Bach Mass and things of that nature.

Current prices seem a bit high for me considering that the 6610 exists now. Seems like $1600 - $1700 is the going rate. $1400 - $1500 seems more reasonable to me given the sort of niche uses for this type of horn.

Custom Bach/Yamaha franken Eb

Last year I had an Eb built for me with a Yamaha 9636 "s" pipe/slide and a Bach 237 bell on a .460 Carol valve block.

This horn is fantastic. As, benlewis mentioned, the leadpipe solves so many issues typical with Eb's. With the Bach bell, I get the projection needed in a big group and, of course, the characteristic "Bach" sound.

The Carol valve block is heavier than either the Bach or Yamaha counterparts and I also opted for nickel outer slides. This adds a core to the sound that I can lean into and the tone doesn't break apart like it does on my 761. It plays like a C trumpet in many aspects, which is what I wanted.

Intonation is very good overall. The second line written G sits just a hair low, but definitely manageable. It's spot on above the staff, so I'm perfectly willing to make that tradeoff.

As far as value, I think it's hard to match. It's maybe not quite as good as the stock YTR-9636 with all the precision engineering and manufacturing that went into that design, but mine has a tone that I prefer and the total bill, parts and labor, will just over $2000 once I get it silver plated. (currently raw brass).

I did get the 9636 D slide for it also, but I haven't had valve slides made, so no comment on how it performs in D (Tack on another $400-ish for those eventually)

A good relationship with a great tech is a must for this kind of project. (Shout out to Bryan Morgan and his associate, Taylor, at Best Instrument Repair in Oakland, CA).
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends a bit on what you're looking for in sound.. And most are combination D/Eb.

I always held Sckilke's Eb trumpet to be the standard, for that light crisper small horn sound.

Then Bach's 189, is more like a C trumpet in play and tonal colors.

I have a Bach that I've loved - great for solo work, and excellent in church and orchestra. The one down side for this design is (for me a rare occurance) playing lower parts under a picc - it doesn't match the lightness of most picc's. Best use I can remember is on the 1st trumpet part of the Rutter Gloria, C trumpet sound with a little more comfort of a smaller trumpet.


If I were looking these days I would start with Blackburn's 3 valve - to me the best Eb trumpet I've played.
Then Schilke (IMO Yamaha's are a lesser copy of these - and lack a little something in the sound - not to mention ongoing 3-5 years design change)
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been through a number over the years (and years). It all depends on what you want from the instrument, the playing situation, etc.

Yamaha 7XX Eb/D. Was lumped with this for playing baroque parts in a school orchestra, back in, well, school. I knew nothing, had never played one and struggled. As a clone of a Schilke E2 / E3, it worked but was nothing special to write home about. Quirky intonation and not very user friendly. I kept using one of these though high school and into college as by then I was on staff and had access.

English Besson 'New Standard' Eb/D. 1960's horn. Very small bore and bell, almost looks like a toy. By all accounts one would dismiss it, BUT, having come across one (never for sale) I compared to my Scherzer picc, and it was the same bore and bell size. The thing plays like a piccolo, but with a little more weight to the sound. There's a niche for using this, needing the lower register but not wanting a big D / Eb sound.

Schilke E3L. I got this new in 1985, added a 3 or C Eb bell and a Bach 239 bell for D. 4 bells, intonation issues up the wazoo, but if I managed it, the big Eb bell sounded wonderful. Actually a great sound all over, but the intonation killed me. Flogged it off at almost a profit after about 10 years.

Kanstul 923. Zig's version of the S bend leadpipe and maybe one of his best sleepers. It is a TERRIFIC horn, great intonation and a bigger broader sound than the Yamaha iteration. I use it at times for descant parts and depending on which key it's sitting for Eb playing at times. Great in an orchestra! I wish I had more use for it. It is essentially a Bach 229 bell and 25 leadpipe in a higher key, was the explanation I got from the factory. Playing it feels like you CAN'T miss notes.

B&S Eb/E 4 valve JK model. If I thought the Kanstul was good in an orchestra, this is nuts. Crazy good intonation, broad, yet lively sound, acceptable pitch down to a low Eb, so it can used in place of a C with ease. Used it recently in a concert that included Hymn to the Fallen. I was happy with the recorded result. The E side has a rather small bell, but if you sit within the tonal range (much brighter) it's a good substitute for a D.

Thein 4 vale MH model Eb/D/C. Want to play a concerto? Want to have a bit of room to get what you want out of the bell? This is it. It's also my go to C trumpet and usually lives as a C. The Haydn I played a few years ago (findable , but is sneakily hidden away on you tube) was a load of fun and a not too shabby result. Good intonation, big broad singing sound, easy to play. It's amazing fun to play. I should use it as an orchestral Eb, but never seem to get there...
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2022 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach ML long bell, that I had Charlie Melk overhaul and tweak a bit, opening it up some with a L bore mod up on the front end that made it play totally different from when I first got it.

Plays and sounds like a larger horn, instead of the lighter sound of say a Schilke. Fits in a section if there’s something that just lays better on Eb for some reason.

Technically, it has two sets of slides, so it’s an Eb/D, but I’ve never played the D side outside of my own home. For D stuff, I usually use my C, or a picc, depending upon what it is.
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chrisroyal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
I've been through a number over the years (and years). It all depends on what you want from the instrument, the playing situation, etc.

Yamaha 7XX Eb/D. Was lumped with this for playing baroque parts in a school orchestra, back in, well, school. I knew nothing, had never played one and struggled. As a clone of a Schilke E2 / E3, it worked but was nothing special to write home about. Quirky intonation and not very user friendly. I kept using one of these though high school and into college as by then I was on staff and had access.

English Besson 'New Standard' Eb/D. 1960's horn. Very small bore and bell, almost looks like a toy. By all accounts one would dismiss it, BUT, having come across one (never for sale) I compared to my Scherzer picc, and it was the same bore and bell size. The thing plays like a piccolo, but with a little more weight to the sound. There's a niche for using this, needing the lower register but not wanting a big D / Eb sound.

Schilke E3L. I got this new in 1985, added a 3 or C Eb bell and a Bach 239 bell for D. 4 bells, intonation issues up the wazoo, but if I managed it, the big Eb bell sounded wonderful. Actually a great sound all over, but the intonation killed me. Flogged it off at almost a profit after about 10 years.

Kanstul 923. Zig's version of the S bend leadpipe and maybe one of his best sleepers. It is a TERRIFIC horn, great intonation and a bigger broader sound than the Yamaha iteration. I use it at times for descant parts and depending on which key it's sitting for Eb playing at times. Great in an orchestra! I wish I had more use for it. It is essentially a Bach 229 bell and 25 leadpipe in a higher key, was the explanation I got from the factory. Playing it feels like you CAN'T miss notes.

B&S Eb/E 4 valve JK model. If I thought the Kanstul was good in an orchestra, this is nuts. Crazy good intonation, broad, yet lively sound, acceptable pitch down to a low Eb, so it can used in place of a C with ease. Used it recently in a concert that included Hymn to the Fallen. I was happy with the recorded result. The E side has a rather small bell, but if you sit within the tonal range (much brighter) it's a good substitute for a D.

Thein 4 vale MH model Eb/D/C. Want to play a concerto? Want to have a bit of room to get what you want out of the bell? This is it. It's also my go to C trumpet and usually lives as a C. The Haydn I played a few years ago (findable , but is sneakily hidden away on you tube) was a load of fun and a not too shabby result. Good intonation, big broad singing sound, easy to play. It's amazing fun to play. I should use it as an orchestral Eb, but never seem to get there...


for the Thein instrument, is that the same as the current E/Eb/D? They also have a 3 valve, but I'm told the 4th valve adds some sonic weight.
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Stradbrother
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach Long Bell, Large Bore Eb/D horn with a 229 bell.

I actually inherited it from my old trumpet professor in undergrad. Best Eb I've ever played. It sounds like a typical Eb horn, but you can just fill it up like a large bore C horn.

Intonation-wise, I naturally play my E and Eb at the top of the staff with lower octave fingerings, but I haven't needed any alternate fingerings for anything else.

Before I had my Bach I had a...

Early Yamaha 761 Eb/D

... Yuck.

As with a lot of players, I went through a Yamaha 761, mostly due to the cheap price. Its essentially a copy of a Schilke E1 in function, but in performance, it just never sang for me. Construction was decent, silver plating was pretty, but those early Yamaha valves never worked for me.

Again, fine for the $500 I paid for it, and can play the Haydn and Hummel well enough for any undergrad college student, but as soon as I inherited my Bach, I sold it the next day.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm saving my money for this baby. Watch the video on the page and you'll know why.

https://thein-brass.de/instrument/e-es-d-trompete-4-ventile/
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: The Ultimate Eb Trumpet Thread Reply with quote

Theshinytrumpet wrote:
What is it? Brand, Model, Age, Configuration

Schilke E3L. Not sure how old it is. SN is in the 15,XXX range. I purchased it in Eb only with the original brass #4 bell - the seller had sold off the D bell and slides already.

How does it play? Intonation, tone qualities, quirks

Intonation is consistent and quite good. D, Eb, and E at the top of the staff sometimes require lower octave fingerings depending on what I'm playing. It has a rich, clear sound, and quick response. Many on here in this thread and others have mentioned the E3L has a small or a light Eb sound. I find my horn to be rather adaptable and responsive to mouthpiece selection. My current choice is an old Bach 1-1/2C with a 117 backbore and a copy of a Laskey rim -- it sounds very much like a C trumpet with this setup. Other mouthpieces can produce lighter, heavier, thinner, narrower, etc., sounds and they all have their uses.

Something I've read, though haven't been able to test, is that the E3L can sometimes work better in D when the D bell is paired with the Eb slides.

Do you feel that it is a good value for money?

Absolutely.

It is or was considered a benchmark for judging Eb trumpets, so one generally can't go wrong playing it, but with advances in Eb trumpet design design it's not the end-all-be-all of Eb trumpets.

What else should someone in the market for an Eb know about this instrument?

If you feed it poor technique, it will reward you with poor performance.

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fleming
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:38 pm    Post subject: Melk Eb Reply with quote

Charlie Melk put a dandy Eb together for me. Bach ML Bb valve section, Bach 239 bell, along with his lead pipe and quite a bit of other work.

My 4 valve Schilke is also really good, both with the stock #2 Schilke bell and a Bach 236 bell.
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mr oakmount
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Yamaha YTR-6610S from the early 90s which I had bought used and 10 years later sold it (for much the same price) because I realised I felt more secure and confident on my Bb, C and piccolo.

The usual c#, d, d# and e on the top of the staff were predictably flat but easy enough to lip up. G at the top of the staff was sharp, but manageable.
The trumpet came into its own when I moved to the UK for a year and only wanted to take two instruments with me, so I figured in the unlikelihood I'd need a C or Piccolo, it would do. To my surprise I ended up playing a few Creations and Messiahs. The trumpet did OK enough.

D tuning worked better for me than Eb, but both were serviceable enough. Slotting was rather loose, but improved a bit when I added heavy caps. The trumpet worked best for me with deepish cup and narrowish backbore mouthpieces.

If I still had it, I'd experiment with having my instrument builder add a heavy adjustable gap mouthpiece receiver and braces for the tuning slides.

If you are an amateur who might only occasionally need a C-Trumpet, Piccolo Trumpet or Eb Cornet, this is a reasonable compromise. I would not call it a pro horn. Try to borrow one before you buy, or take an extended trial period.
These horns can be hard to get used to and might need a bit of a mouthpiece hunt too.


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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shires 6F Eb/D.

Big bell (4.8") and the biggest, fullest sound I have experienced on an Eb trumpet. Not quite as nimble as some of the smaller Eb models out there, but still plenty of agility.

This is a great choice in a full orchestra or a big section, and especially useful when you want a sound like the C or even Bb, but the part lays better on an Eb.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Schilke E3L. Great flexibility, good sound, and pretty solid intonation. I upgraded from a Schike E2 a few months ago and it has been a night and day difference. The E2 may have been a fuller sound, but it was slippery and I had trouble playing it in tune, especially on the D side.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaTrompeta wrote:
I'm saving my money for this baby. Watch the video on the page and you'll know why.

https://thein-brass.de/instrument/e-es-d-trompete-4-ventile/

The video is absolutely incredible.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
LaTrompeta wrote:
I'm saving my money for this baby. Watch the video on the page and you'll know why.

https://thein-brass.de/instrument/e-es-d-trompete-4-ventile/

The video is absolutely incredible.


Mind you, those are his "students."
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