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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:07 am    Post subject: Loud enough? Reply with quote

Hard to believe the lead trumpet part is not getting heard. Usually it's the conductor holding up a hand to indicate too loud. Perhaps the conductor has some kind of grudge with you and it's his or her way of showing control.

I was playing a pops concert in Denver and made an effort to go up to the viola section in front of me to explain that I totally understood my volume may not be to their liking but the guy on the podium wanted to hear what the program required. This was at the rehearsal and all the viola section said how much they loved pops and everything was fine with them. Eight violas were at the rehearsal and only four showed up for the gig. They understood all right with their DB meters by their side, ear plugs in place and plexiglass shields behind each chair. Good thing the conductor was my boss.

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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Loud enough? Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
Hard to believe the lead trumpet part is not getting heard. Usually it's the conductor holding up a hand to indicate too loud. Perhaps the conductor has some kind of grudge with you and it's his or her way of showing control.

The only bias that I might ascribe to the conductor is that he has a history with drum corp. From that I think there's an expectation for a very high horn angle that I just can't routinely accommodate. Risers, tall stools or just playing standing would no doubt help some. I've also considered a turned-up bell or bent mouthpiece but I frankly don't like the idea of either.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a slightly higher chair or stool - maybe something such as this -
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Folding-Metal-Stool-Black/17165149

I bought one to help see a short conductor, but the seat height also helped place the trumpet bell to not be blocked by the player in front.

The stool is light weight, sturdy, and comfortable for me (~175 lbs).
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Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the conductor could ask the rest to play softer?
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
Maybe the conductor could ask the rest to play softer?

Preaching to the choir. I'm just north of 60 and it's rare when I find a ground that doesn't play too loud. I've been lucky enough to attend a brass chamber music workshop for a number of years that is almost always the exception. I can play there morning, noon, and night and endurance is hardly ever an issue. And curiously, hardly anyone there ever asks me to play louder.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
Maybe the conductor could ask the rest to play softer?

As a conductor, that was my first reaction. Obviously, you don't want to undermine the piece if it's the trumpet player's "fault" but maybe the director has a wrong concept about the music, it's balance and volume.

I didn't say anything because, really, this is all hypothetical; without hearing the music and how it's performed.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
stuartissimo wrote:
Maybe the conductor could ask the rest to play softer?

As a conductor, that was my first reaction. Obviously, you don't want to undermine the piece if it's the trumpet player's "fault" but maybe the director has a wrong concept about the music, it's balance and volume.

Even though I feel that the band should generally be less loud I acknowledge that I'm not the most powerful player. And I've played with a fair number of other players who seem to have a much easier time cranking out the decibels. So it's something I think I'd benefit from developing regardless of this particular ensemble.
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Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:

Even though I feel that the band should generally be less loud I acknowledge that I'm not the most powerful player. And I've played with a fair number of other players who seem to have a much easier time cranking out the decibels. So it's something I think I'd benefit from developing regardless of this particular ensemble.


OK - I'm circling back to frequencies and projection rather than cranking out your present sound at at bigger volume. I notice that your mouthpiece is sort of a "pumped" 3C. If you don't need that extra room at the bottom sides for lip intrusion, consider a stock 3C with a mouthpiece weight or a 3C Megatone. This is the least intrusive change I can think of to increase the brilliance in your sound and give you more projection without blowing louder and without going to a lead style mouthpiece.
You can then switch back to your preferred mouthpiece for other work.

Just curious, can the director hear you when you play your Conn 80A with a 3C cornet mouthpiece?
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few thoughts:

- Have you tried recording the rehearsals from the audience? (Like, setting up a recording device at a distance.) I've been surprised listening back after the fact at home how spots in the music where I thought I was getting louder in the mix, I was actually getting less focused, and less clear in the overall sound. (So, effectively, quieter rather than louder. Also less attractive sounding. Not a good deal.)

- Related, but slightly different: I find I get more projection and more stamina by emphasizing quiet practice. It's probably that I'm getting more focused and letting the trumpet do more of the work. When I go back to playing relatively as normal, it actually feels like playing somewhat less loudly, at least to me, but it sounds louder in the overall mix. (And nicer. Win-win.)

- Maybe obvious, but just in case: have you tried moving the stand further away, or out of the path of your bell?

- If you have the latitude to choose this, can you play longer notes, and play with a more immediate attack? If your note shapes leave less space between notes, you sound louder without actually playing louder, and similarly, if you get to the peak volume for a given note immediately, rather than blooming into it, your sound will tend to be more prominent in the balance.

- You might not want to go down this road, but personally, I find that any time I play a GR mouthpiece, I'm surprised by how much more sound I hear bouncing back at myself than I'm used to. I have a few I play for particular things, and I'm not sure they're my favourite overall sound, but, at least for me, they're noticeably more efficient at getting sound out there than some other mouthpieces.
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
OK - I'm circling back to frequencies and projection rather than cranking out your present sound at at bigger volume. I notice that your mouthpiece is sort of a "pumped" 3C. If you don't need that extra room at the bottom sides for lip intrusion, consider a stock 3C with a mouthpiece weight or a 3C Megatone. This is the least intrusive change I can think of to increase the brilliance in your sound and give you more projection without blowing louder and without going to a lead style mouthpiece.
You can then switch back to your preferred mouthpiece for other work.

Just curious, can the director hear you when you play your Conn 80A with a 3C cornet mouthpiece?

Andy, Thanks for the very specific advice. My current piece is really a stock but older 1.5C with a slightly smaller, friendlier rim that feels more like a Yamaha 14B4. Modern 3Cs feel too big for me. So far the closest I've come to a louder mouthpiece is my Schilke Symphony M3 with its slightly smaller 3-rim, 24-throat and Schmidt backbore. I might have to spend more time with that one though it tends to be taxing.

My 80A is really a project horn that I haven't brought to this band. It needs work including pads and a leadpipe.

The only other Bb in my arsenal is a 70's vintage Holton MF with the 0.468" bore. Never considered trying that one with this band, but then I've never considered it any louder than my Bach at least not with my current mouthpiece. Might be a fun experiment.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Try a slightly higher chair or stool - maybe something such as this -
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Folding-Metal-Stool-Black/17165149

I bought one to help see a short conductor, but the seat height also helped place the trumpet bell to not be blocked by the player in front.

The stool is light weight, sturdy, and comfortable for me (~175 lbs).

The associated jazz band has those exact same stools. We've talked about using them or something similar for the wind ensemble.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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cheiden
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Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
jhatpro wrote:
I was a 1.5 guy and a shallow breather. An Austin TA-1 top with a Legends T backbore worked wonders for me.

I'm intrigued about the TA-1. When I play a Bach 6 (standard drill and backbore) with a deep V cup I can tell it's noticably louder but the tone is too dark to carry. It makes me wonder if a shallower V cup would retain some of the volume without going dark. I repeat that I just can't play most shallow cup pieces. Yamaha/Schilke B cup yes, A cup no. I've read about lead-type pieces for folks that struggle with shallow but never had a chance to try such a piece. And now that I think of it, I'd prefer not to go a whole lot brighter, just better projection.

I'd be curious to know what your impressions of the stock TA-1 are. I also don't know anything about the Legends backbores. How does their "T" backbore compare to more typical ones?
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think the terms used to discuss this topic make it very difficult because each term means a little something different to each person. As someone said, resonance is the key. When you play in the resonant center of the note, it will project.
I'm not a big fan of playing a lot of lip bends but they can be used to help identify where the note rings best. Pivotting position can be used in the same way.
I use a very relaxed embouchure with a lot of air moving forward. Be careful not to "push" the air to much because that will shut down the resonance. It's really just a big relaxed breath in followed by a big relaxed breath out.
I think this is a much easier topic to deal with live instead of on a forum but I'm hip to keep following this topic and see what people say.
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Jason Rogers
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi cheiden :

You refer to your group as a "wind ensemble". I have heard and experienced playing in community "wind ensembles" where it seemed the concept of musicality and balance was to just play as loud as you could-- to heck with balance. Imagine what the wood winds sound like in a group like that....find a more refined group to play in...get a better conductor...
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