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Receiver placement and water key tension determine playblty


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improver
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Receiver placement and water key tension determine playblty Reply with quote

Over a couple years I've have determined through working on my own new horns that how far on a receiver is placed and how tight the water key is determine the blow. The receiver has to be placed in the exact right place and the water key too. I had 2 new horns that I had to adjust myself and now they play incredibly well.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many other factors that affect the blow more than these.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you adjust by trial and error, or use some measurement method?
Was the receiver placement to adjust the gap? Did you make any changes to the leadpipe itself?
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improver
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trial and error. I bought a Bach 37 newish from a well known dealer who got the receiver distance wrong and has the wsterkey spring wrong. and a new X13 where I wondered why it didnt play right and had a new receiver put on at the right distance and it plays great. I'm sure other things affect the blow like the other guy says, but I'm telling guys if something doesnt feel right dont assume some noted repair guy or manufacturer gets it right all the time. And these are the 2 things I think highly affect the openness and evenness of blowing. Imho
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improver
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes receiver placement affects the gap
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
Trial and error. I bought a Bach 37 newish from a well known dealer who got the receiver distance wrong and has the wsterkey spring wrong. and a new X13 where I wondered why it didnt play right and had a new receiver put on at the right distance and it plays great. …..


Interesting. Is that the horn (X13) that Adam (or was it Brett) Getzen helped you with? So do you think the receiver placement caused it to be unplayable above the staff, or were there other factors involved too? I still have to wonder why, if it played that way when you tried it, that you bought it; I might be mistaken, but didn’t you say you tried it in person before you bought it? Maybe I’m incorrect or missed something here though.

And you had it listed for sale here too, right?

Brad
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improver
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brad let me answer your questions. Yes changing the receiver and putting it in the right place changed everything. When I sent it back to Edwards they did a great job going over everything checking tolerances and they cut me a new tuning slide. But when I got it back it still wasnt optimal. So i ordered another receiver and put it on and the horn plays great. On another new/ used Back I bought from Josh Landress had gone through his shop where he fully checked it out in his shop aligned valves adjustments etc. what he calls a receiver optimum . But when I got it it wasnt optimal because the main water key tension and receiver weren't optimum. I made them so and it plays awesome. Yes I tried out the X13 before I bought it but I wanted it so bad I said to myself I'll adjust and live with the blow. Well you know the rest of the story. At the end of the day I believe what separates one new instrument from the next one in line may have a lot to do with those 2 things. They did with my new horns. It's no knock on the shop or the manufacturer. But ho 2 horns are set up alike as close as they get them, and in my case I fixed 2 less than optimal playing horns into great blowing instruments. I've learned a lot. The receiver and water key tension have an exact optimal position.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These 'optimal' positions are entirely preferential, and only experimenting can get you what you like as a player. In fact, most of the adjustments and modifications we see in the trumpet world are less about sound and more about player comfort. The more comfortable a player is while they play, the closer they can get to the sound that's in their head.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
These 'optimal' positions are entirely preferential, and only experimenting can get you what you like as a player. In fact, most of the adjustments and modifications we see in the trumpet world are less about sound and more about player comfort. The more comfortable a player is while they play, the closer they can get to the sound that's in their head.

I also think that gap is highly susceptible to mouthpiece. Just as the instruments vary from specimen to specimen so do mouthpieces. So the reference mouthpiece that a manufacturer uses might result in a less than “optimal” gap for the owner.

Please note that I am not challenging the OP’s experience. Quite the opposite. In addition I seem to remember that Edwards adjusted the X13 using the OP’s mouthpiece.
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Locutus2k
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing the gap can transform a bad horn in a great horn and viceversa. Let me tell that there are better way to check gap before you change the receiver in whole. Cutting a piece for Reeves sleeves or ask Jim New for a modification of your piece with his wonderful adjustable gap system.
For other thing affecting blows, yes i believe there are many and they change from horn to horn. In my Lawler TL5 removing or loosening the third valve screw stop change the blows to more or less open and you can notice instantly.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets wrote:
These 'optimal' positions are entirely preferential, and only experimenting can get you what you like as a player. In fact, most of the adjustments and modifications we see in the trumpet world are less about sound and more about player comfort. The more comfortable a player is while they play, the closer they can get to the sound that's in their head.


This, especially the first sentence, “optimal” can be very subjective.

Brad
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improver
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I believe there is a sweet spot that let's say the majority would agree is optimal otherwise the setting of these standards at a factory would be random.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's more like there is a 'placement range' that is acceptable by many people, and being somewhere in that range is optimal (within spec) for builders.
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Receiver placement and water key tension determine playb Reply with quote

improver wrote:
Over a couple years I've have determined through working on my own new horns that how far on a receiver is placed and how tight the water key is determine the blow. The receiver has to be placed in the exact right place and the water key too. I had 2 new horns that I had to adjust myself and now they play incredibly well.


I agree about the waterkey screw tension. It's the final adjustment I make when I've finished with an instrument's repair. On a Bach it usually makes a notable difference in the sound's intensity. That being said, with other instruments, especially if they're old and loose, it may not make much difference.

Receiver placement, well, that's a good deal more complex and the mouthpiece placement within the receiver is where a lot of the response or lack thereof comes from. I like to replace Bach receivers when doing an overhaul as the manufaturer pretty much has gap nailed on those.

My 2p.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always had a problem with the idea of “moving the receiver” to change the gap. You can do it, and if you move the receiver back you will get more gap, but on most horns I’ve seen you can’t go the other way to have less gap. And if you move it back to get more gap, you change drastically gne shape of the gap. It just messes with everything. Here is a couple pictures I just drew up to show what I mean:

[url] https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ouwtqa8uyk9lyz/Mpc%20receiver%201.PNG?dl=0[/url]

[url] https://www.dropbox.com/s/9leqdj40fbc7093/Mpc%20receiver%202.PNG?dl=0[/url]
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improver
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a newer Bach 37 from Josh Landress who does a great job on repairs. In the list of things he said they do in the shop before they sell the horn ( 37 that belonged to Jeremy Davenport with a scratched laquer finish and screw 3rd slide stop custom. ), valve alignment etc. One of the things was receiver adjustment or something like that. I got the horn but it never felt right. Long story short it literally took me a year by myself to get the tension school right and the receiver right. It was put on a bit to far. Its amazing now. Now I know that Josh's guy put those two things exactly where they thought it was optimal. But it wasnt. That's 2 horns now that by adjusting those 2 things they play awesome. I'm thinking about going into business. I just wonder how many guys have horns that they think were dogs that if those 2 things were right they'd be different horns.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one of the reasons why things like Osmun’s blueprinting service exists. In addition to bringing the horn back to “specs” they can assess how the whole ecosystem works.

Other builders/manufacturers do this before the purchase. But facilitating customer/builder/tech on every new horn sale would necessitate higher prices.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
…….Now I know that Josh's guy put those two things exactly where they thought it was optimal. But it wasnt. That's 2 horns now that by adjusting those 2 things they play awesome. I'm thinking about going into business. I just wonder how many guys have horns that they think were dogs that if those 2 things were right they'd be different horns.


I’m not disputing that in your opinion, the adjustments you made work for you. But I think the word “you” is important. Maybe the adjustments you made would be universally accepted as making those two horns, both of which have established reputations, that came from established and well respected sources, “better.” Or maybe mostly just “better” for “you.”

We’re all different and have different approaches, preferences and skill levels……and the level of skill of a player definitely is a part of the equation.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Wed May 25, 2022 5:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
This one of the reasons why things like Osmun’s blueprinting service exists. In addition to bringing the horn back to “specs” they can assess how the whole ecosystem works.

Other builders/manufacturers do this before the purchase. But facilitating customer/builder/tech on every new horn sale would necessitate higher prices.


My tinkering with most things ends up costing me $$$ that is targeted for the necessities. I leave any and all necessary detail tweaking to professionals like James Becker at Osmun. He has always advised and delivered the desired results for me and I consider it money well spent!

Mike
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2022 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
I bought a newer Bach 37 from Josh Landress who does a great job on repairs. In the list of things he said they do in the shop before they sell the horn ( 37 that belonged to Jeremy Davenport with a scratched laquer finish and screw 3rd slide stop custom. ), valve alignment etc. One of the things was receiver adjustment or something like that. I got the horn but it never felt right. Long story short it literally took me a year by myself to get the tension school right and the receiver right. It was put on a bit to far. Its amazing now. Now I know that Josh's guy put those two things exactly where they thought it was optimal. But it wasnt. That's 2 horns now that by adjusting those 2 things they play awesome. I'm thinking about going into business. I just wonder how many guys have horns that they think were dogs that if those 2 things were right they'd be different horns.


When we make adjustment on instrument in the shop before we list for sale we adjust them to what we feel makes them play best. On my staff I have 3 incredible trumpet players, 2 of which are in the shop the other doing sales. They all are working professionals in NYC and often sub on Broadway on shows such as Music Man, Book of Morman, Phantom Of the Opera as well as playing in orchestras like the ASO, ABT and others orchestras around the country. When we adjust something it is a pool amongst them as to what adjustments need to be made to make the horn play the best all around.

It sounds to me, that especially given your situation of having to adjust 2 horns receivers that you have more of a mouthpiece issue with shank dimensions. It would have been easier to have your mouthpiece converted to Reeves sleeves and dial in the gap to your preference with those. I have plenty of customers who we do this for and use different adaptors for different horns in different playing environments.
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