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lipshurt
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
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 Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 6:36 am Post subject: |
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If you look at those drawings I put up, you see what happens when you slide a receiver back. It makes the gap about twice as deep and also adds another corner into the geometry. What that does is make it so that the wrong gap is really terrible, but you can find a gap possibly that is less terrible. So tne difference between tne right gap and the wrong gap is more obvious. That doesn’t mean that the best results you get are better than arriving a that same gap by another method, such as sleeves, or other adjustment. When the receiver is not all the way on and tne the leadpipe is not butting up against the lip, creating that extra big and weird chamber, the horn does not play as good.
Sleeves are problematic actually because just sleeving a mouthpiece changes it kind of a lot. Using sleeves to find the best gap, and then soldering the sleeve in place, or making a new shank with that size can be better than playing a mouthpiece with a sleeve.
It easier to adjust a shank the make the gap smaller of course, but adjusting for more gap is more tricky. Sometimes it works to simply cut a bit off the end of the shank, but that changes more than just the gap. It changes the exit wall thickness and also the resultant backbore size and shape (cutting the end off KIND OF effectively makes the backbore smaller, or at least act differently) but it might play good that way, and that is about about a 50/50 thing.
If you play screw backbores you can get one made with the same size as the sleeve size you determine is best. That’s pretty easy
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vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3630
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| J. Landress Brass wrote: | | improver wrote: | | I bought a newer Bach 37 from Josh Landress who does a great job on repairs. In the list of things he said they do in the shop before they sell the horn ( 37 that belonged to Jeremy Davenport with a scratched laquer finish and screw 3rd slide stop custom. ), valve alignment etc. One of the things was receiver adjustment or something like that. I got the horn but it never felt right. Long story short it literally took me a year by myself to get the tension school right and the receiver right. It was put on a bit to far. Its amazing now. Now I know that Josh's guy put those two things exactly where they thought it was optimal. But it wasnt. That's 2 horns now that by adjusting those 2 things they play awesome. I'm thinking about going into business. I just wonder how many guys have horns that they think were dogs that if those 2 things were right they'd be different horns. |
When we make adjustment on instrument in the shop before we list for sale we adjust them to what we feel makes them play best. On my staff I have 3 incredible trumpet players, 2 of which are in the shop the other doing sales. They all are working professionals in NYC and often sub on Broadway on shows such as Music Man, Book of Morman, Phantom Of the Opera as well as playing in orchestras like the ASO, ABT and others orchestras around the country. When we adjust something it is a pool amongst them as to what adjustments need to be made to make the horn play the best all around.
It sounds to me, that especially given your situation of having to adjust 2 horns receivers that you have more of a mouthpiece issue with shank dimensions. It would have been easier to have your mouthpiece converted to Reeves sleeves and dial in the gap to your preference with those. I have plenty of customers who we do this for and use different adaptors for different horns in different playing environments. |
Yes, Mr. Landress is right, right, right. When I finish a trumpet's repair, I'm able to play test, as is my colleague. If I do a custom modification on a lower brass instrument, I have the player or another professional play test, as I do not play lower brass instruments.
I've backed receivers out from the leadpipe in the past, but it's usually because the player has a worn mouthpiece they love and want to use on an instrument. It's not something I would ever normally recommend.
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Tony Scodwell
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1960
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:18 am Post subject: Receiver placement |
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When you have input from Josh Landress, why on earth do you question it? What I've read on this post is a guy tinkering with his equipment and obviously that's correct because he's saying it is. No less than Vincent Bach has decreed a mouthpiece gap of 1/8th inch is the optimum for a Bb trumpet and regardless of the theory put forth by others, I for one am convinced he was correct. That said, you would be hard put to find two mouthpieces with the "correct" taper and length made by all the mouthpiece makers claiming exact CNC technology with their equipment. The Reeves system of sleeves is brilliant in that regard and they are not soldered on, the shank gets machined down to accept the various sleeves with a slip fit and O ring.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12656
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Receiver placement |
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| Tony Scodwell wrote: | When you have input from Josh Landress, why on earth do you question it? What I've read on this post is a guy tinkering with his equipment and obviously that's correct because he's saying it is. No less than Vincent Bach has decreed a mouthpiece gap of 1/8th inch is the optimum for a Bb trumpet and regardless of the theory put forth by others, I for one am convinced he was correct. That said, you would be hard put to find two mouthpieces with the "correct" taper and length made by all the mouthpiece makers claiming exact CNC technology with their equipment. The Reeves system of sleeves is brilliant in that regard and they are not soldered on, the shank gets machined down to accept the various sleeves with a slip fit and O ring.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Tony,
I don't disagree at all. I have some sleeved mouthpieces by Stomvi I believe and can attest to how changing the gap makes a difference.
But doesn't the O ring that seals the sleeve to the shank deaden some of the vibrations that would be transmitted by a non-sleeved shank? (I am not sensitive enough to detect a difference myself)
There is a product for sale that mechanically couples the mouthpiece to the leadpipe that some feel helps. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 10:16 am Post subject: |
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---------------------------------------------
When looking into a receiver that is installed on a leadpipe, is the nearest ledge that can be seen when looking into the receiver a part of the receiver itself, or is it the leadpipe?
And, are there actually 2 ledges present - the ledge that is part of the receiver, and another ledge, slightly further in, that is the end of the actual leadpipe?
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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lipshurt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2022 10:40 am Post subject: |
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If the leadpipe is not pushed far enough to hit the ledge in the receiver, then there are two ledges.
Notice how the leadpipe is flared out a bit (usually it’s like that to keep everything concentric when assembling) and usually the mouthpiece is not beveled (usually anyway. It can be beveled and that changes the gap shape and the whole gap situation works differently)
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I'm coming late to this thread, but would like to provide my perspective.
Let me start by paraphrasing Bob Reeves. The right gap is the one that works, and too much gap is better than not enough.
I would like to point out that the receiver is only half the equation, the other half is the mouthpiece shank. As technicians we can only control the receiver side. The best we can hope for is a neutral position that is within the parameters of the manufacturer's specifications, plus or minus .030". For example, Bach trumpets are designed to have a gap or "pocket" (Vincent Bach's language) of 1/8" or .125" with a Bach mouthpiece. That leaves you with a maximum of .155" and a minimum of .095". In my view, these gaps would be within acceptable range (excluding the 25M, Chicago and Philly model C trumpets designed with greater than average gap). So long as you are within these limits you should be fine, understanding that greater gap provides more blow resistance and more defined slots, less gap provides less blow resistance and less defined slots. Keep in mind every mouthpiece maker has their own shank dimensions as part of their overall design resulting in greater or lesser gap than a Bach shank. Worth mentioning, Schilke and most Yamaha models gap between .070" and .100", while Benge typically gap as much as 1/4" or .250".
To correct a worn receiver I prefer to simply replace them with new, but that is not always possible. In instances of collectable vintage, where altering the instrument is discouraged, the adjustment must be done on the mouthpiece shank side.
This is where the Reeves Sleeves are invaluable. Not only are you able to find your personal "sweet spot", it provides grater flexibility to use your favorite mouthpiece on multiple trumpets and dial in the gap that works best on each instrument. A more permanent fix is to re-shank by soldering a piece of new brass stock and machining to the original proportions.
In defense of Josh Landress, there's not much more that could have been done without the player being on site where one on one consultation can take place. I also agree with Ewan Divitt that personal comfort is the goal, as the correct gap is subjective. Water key screw tension, natural cork vs synthetic material are also subjective and can be addressed to personal taste.
I hope this has been helpful.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
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