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rubberchops
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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 Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 5:40 pm Post subject: Embouchure formation |
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I had my first lesson tonight and I need to work on my embouchure. Can anyone point me towards some good videos or pictures?
Thanks. |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2022 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Teachers generally use one of 2 approaches: either they give specific instructions on what to do physically, or they they use the sound to help guide the embouchure into place naturally. To send a student to work it out on their own without instructions seems a little weird to me. You really should ask your teacher about all this, as embouchure is the foundation of trumpet playing. Getting it wrong makes it a lot harder (to nearly impossible) to play properly, and it’s pretty much the primary reason why a teacher is so vital when learning the trumpet.
tl;dr You really don’t want to go about this on your own, trust me.
Embouchures can vary from person to person due to dental structure and jaw position (others are more qualified to comment on that than me). Copying what someone else does only works up to point, and there’s often far more going on than is visible from the outside.
That being said, if I had to give an example of someone with a very good technique, I’d recommend Alex from Trumpet Brain.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fmJ_60sSewQ
In the linked video he starts on a piccolo trumpet, but at about 2 minutes there’s a good view of his embouchure on a Bb trumpet. Although the video is titled ‘high notes’, the things he describes are great advice for trumpet playing in general.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 4:15 am Post subject: |
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I think it's helpful to have an understanding of the basics of what your embouchure has to do. The particular ways that different people 'make it happen' vary depending on their physical structure.
When you get information about 'how to do it', be careful to play attention to what 'basic embouchure function' is being achieved, and also what is being done to achieve that function.
My thoughts about basic embouchure function are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 7:23 am Post subject: |
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It's quite possible to watch videos that conflict with your teacher. Different styles. Do what your teacher says and don't be distracted by anything else.
If you don't have confidence in your teacher, get another one. If you do, follow his/her guidance.
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | To send a student to work it out on their own without instruction... |
This is my approach for beginners. In general I can have the student make a much more effective embouchure by getting them to play a great sound and seeing their natural "great sound" formation and take it from there. To get a pre-pubescent student to be able to somatically "feel" their embouchure is near impossible in my experience and is a recipe for disaster.
Also, imagine a student has never heard a trumpet sound but you tell them how to make an embouchure. They do everything right and blow. Is the sound that comes out a great trumpet sound? It's a backwards approach. The story of nearly every great player is: lots of trumpet sounds on albums in my childhood home then I got a trumpet and tried to copy it. We can learn from that.
Everybody's embouchure looks different as you stated. To try and copy anybody for embouchure structure is very very silly.
To rubberchops:
Forget about the embouchure. Just listen to great trumpet players and have fun for now. If your teacher sent you home to work on your embouchure, I HIGHLY recommend getting a different teacher.
Enjoy! |
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JayKosta
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: |
This is my approach for beginners. In general I can have the student make a much more effective embouchure by getting them to play a great sound and seeing their natural "great sound" formation and take it from there. To get a pre-pubescent student to be able to somatically "feel" their embouchure is near impossible in my experience and is a recipe for disaster. ... |
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Are you doing that with immediate interaction - where you can watch and hear, and quickly 'take it from there'? That's a much different scenario then telling an inexperienced beginner to 'go home' and 'find something that works'.
And at a more detailed level of instruction - how do you address the situation of a beginner who has an 'effective embouchure' for making a great sound for the easily played notes, but has trouble when playing higher notes - where some teachers simply say to 'use less pressure'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Count me among those who believe that you can develop a perfectly reasonable sound and modest facility with an embouchure that is fundamentally flawed. It's hard enough to get this right with a pro-level teacher. Doing it on your own is a crapshoot at best.
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | That's a much different scenario then telling an inexperienced beginner to 'go home' and 'find something that works'. |
I'd argue that the "go home and find something that works" is better than telling them how to form an embouchure (more like listen to great players and copy them). It has worked for SO many great players. Why would you discount this approach? I don't understand.
| JayKosta wrote: | | And at a more detailed level of instruction - how do you address the situation of a beginner who has an 'effective embouchure' for making a great sound for the easily played notes, but has trouble when playing higher notes - where some teachers simply say to 'use less pressure'. |
This is quite individualized and there's not a one size fits all approach to address this. You are not addressing higher notes, you are addressing "sound, form, and approach" (song and wind). There is nothing drastically different between a mid G and a G on top of the staff (it's all vibration baby). So an embouchure that produces a GREAT sound in the middle register generally has a propensity to achieve a great sound in the mid-high to high register (high C and below). This particular question is very strange from my point of view because as long as the embouchure is viable and the sound is great, you won't encounter this problem for very long if you're an effective teacher. |
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stuartissimo
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | stuartissimo wrote: | | To send a student to work it out on their own without instruction... |
This is my approach for beginners. In general I can have the student make a much more effective embouchure by getting them to play a great sound and seeing their natural "great sound" formation and take it from there. |
That’s not giving the student ‘no instructions’, you’re instructing them how to develop a good embouchure by using the sound as a reference.
The OP’s question is more like instructing a student to ‘find what works’ by googling embouchure mechanics.
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| stuartissimo wrote: | | The OP’s question is more like instructing a student to ‘find what works’ by googling embouchure mechanics. |
Oh, totally agree with you there. Thank you for clarifying for me. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: |
I'd argue that the "go home and find something that works" is better than telling them how to form an embouchure (more like listen to great players and copy them). It has worked for SO many great players. Why would you discount this approach? I don't understand. ... |
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I'm inclined to be quite analytical and mechanical - so I feel that if I understand 'what has to happen', I can learn 'how to do it' more easily.
About embouchure, I believe there is a fairly short list and explanation of the BASICS of 'what has to happen'. Players who are able to understand and absorb those 'technical basics' should be able to recognize when they are on the right track, and when they are off-course.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
I'm inclined to be quite analytical and mechanical - so I feel that if I understand 'what has to happen', I can learn 'how to do it' more easily.
About embouchure, I believe there is a fairly short list and explanation of the BASICS of 'what has to happen'. Players who are able to understand and absorb those 'technical basics' should be able to recognize when they are on the right track, and when they are off-course. |
It is totally necessary for advanced players to be analytical and mechanical for problem solving purposes or to leave a plateau. But it tends to be wholly unnecessary and detrimental for a young beginning student to be analytical and mechanical.
The BASICS of 'what has to happen' (as it relates to the embouchure) is that you it must produce a great trumpet sound (on every note, in every combination, at any dynamic, etc.) Full stop. If you can achieve that as a beginner or an advanced player, you're doing a great job. It's up to the teacher to bear the burden of keeping the developing student on-track while opening up their aural capacity to be self-sufficient. The sound is sufficient for self-sufficiency.
Will you end up with the most optimal embouchure you could have possibly had? Perhaps you will, perhaps you won't. But unless the teacher can possess the body of the student, the teacher can also not tell what is the most optimal embouchure you could possibly have. We only have the sound as our guide. I've seen beautiful embouchures produce hideous noises and strange embouchures produce milk and honey. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| abontrumpet wrote: | | ... It's up to the teacher to bear the burden of keeping the developing student on-track while opening up their aural capacity to be self-sufficient. The sound is sufficient for self-sufficiency. ... |
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The sound is sufficient ...
The 'keeping on-track' is the burden.
A good teacher can help a good student be successful.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2022 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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You're going to be working on your embouchure for the whole time you play the trumpet. For now what you want is to get as good a sound as possible and get familiar with playing. If your embouchure feels basically comfortable and your sound is good within the range you can play you'll be at least be in a workable place. You can make changes down the road as you gain more awareness and experience.
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Leeway
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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I never had much in the way of guidance when I first started some 35+ years ago.
I had a teacher but little was explained about forming a good embouchure.
Consequently I was always limited in range.
I had enough natural ability and good enough ears to develop a good tone and later; I met other players who did give me some guidance on embouchure, pressure, and air.
This did improve my endurance and sound and I was seeing a gradual increase in range.
Then I retired from playing and did not play for over a decade.
When I got back into playing I was starting from scratch.
I had no recourse to a teacher as I had moved to an isolated area, so I got onto YouTube and found some excellent videos that made my new approach far more 'correct'
Now, my range is greater than it ever was and when I'm 'set up' properly, my sound is good and I don't get fatigued like I once did.
The best youtube teacher I have found is Charlie Porter.
He shows an excellent approach to forming a good embouchure and made a huge difference to my sound, range and endurance.
Some golden rules are:
Put enough pressure on the mouthpiece to make a seal and NO MORE.
Take the pressure off the top lip as much as possible.
Play softly, only increase volume when you get a clear tone playing softly
Don't push into the mouthpiece as you ascend in pitch, pushing in restricts your lips ability to vibrate and results in bad tone or no tone as your lips will simply stop buzzing from the pressure
Keep your embouchure constant from bottom of register to top.
Use air speed to ascend while using your muscles to keep control of the buzz
Use your ears to guide you to a full, resonant sound.
Charlie Porter demonstrates his 'Straight Line' approach in several of his videos and it Works!
Eventually, with a sound approach, your embouchure will fall into place and make playing easier and your sound and range better.
Hope this helps. |
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rubberchops
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Joined: 21 May 2022
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Leeway. That was very helpful. |
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Leeway
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| rubberchops wrote: | | Thanks Leeway. That was very helpful. |
My pleasure RC!
As an after thought, finding a comfortable mouthpiece is also important.
I don't like a hard 'bite' on a mp.
This is the inner edge of the Rim.
It can be sharp or rounded , I like rounded but only you will know what feels right.
Trumpet is a hard instrument to master and takes work and discipline to get good results.
Look at progress in 3 month blocks
Work towards an achievement each 3 months and then step forward
You may not always succeed but failures too can be learned from.
Divide your routine between technical studies like scales, exercises and arpeggios and 'free blowing '
I.e. working on your favourite tunes and improvising
Don't forget to rest, even a day off sometimes is very beneficial
You are building muscles and strength, so rest is crucial to heal muscles that are developing.
Most of all, enjoy the instrument and the challenge of producing music on it.
There may be tears before bedtime but the joy of hearing the horn sing when you can make it makes it all worthwhile. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Keep your embouchure constant from bottom of register to top.
Use air speed to ascend while using your muscles to keep control of the buzz |
The embouchure actually must change to ascend. That is, the state of the muscular action of the lip muscles varies. With correct practice the baseline effort AND the effort increase required to ascend can be reduced.
Air "speed" has nothing to do with pitch. You are likely referring to air pressure, which controls dynamics.
Most embouchure and introductory advice encourages excessive effort both to form the embouchure and to play the first notes. |
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Leeway
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | Keep your embouchure constant from bottom of register to top.
Use air speed to ascend while using your muscles to keep control of the buzz |
The embouchure actually must change to ascend. That is, the state of the muscular action of the lip muscles varies. With correct practice the baseline effort AND the effort increase required to ascend can be reduced.
Air "speed" has nothing to do with pitch. You are likely referring to air pressure, which controls dynamics.
Most embouchure and introductory advice encourages excessive effort both to form the embouchure and to play the first notes. |
Let's not confuse our beginner with word salads.
He's best off to watch a good instructional video like Charlie Porter's series and get off to a correct start than get confused with our semantics.
If these threads turn into disputes and arguments over ego driven B.S. it will end up that people will simply bail out and avoid participation.
You just do your thing R.C. enjoy the horn and focus on your music. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Let's not confuse our beginner with word salads. |
(Says one who wrote: "Use air speed to ascend")
If you instruct one to "use air speed", how are they to know what you are referring to? How would you describe the specific actions required to increase or decrease air "speed"? Or is one expected to know that? (For the benefit of the OP please.)
rubberchops wrote:
| Quote: | | I had my first lesson tonight and I need to work on my embouchure. Can anyone point me towards some good videos or pictures? |
I have some information I can send you that works GREAT for beginners. Send me a PM. The Charlie Porter video requires FAR more effort and complexity than is required to form a good embouchure.
On your first lesson, did your teacher require for you to buzz either the mouthpiece alone (without the instrument), or the lips alone? |
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