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ITG horns and gear... what was good/bad?


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puzzleheadedcow
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:18 am    Post subject: ITG horns and gear... what was good/bad? Reply with quote

I soooo want to go to ITG it looks like a trumpet candyland. Maybe next year?

To those who went this week what was good/bad/ugly/et cetera?
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Favorite horns:
Tumultus
Thane Performance
Adams A4LT

Disappointing horns:
Bach Mariachi
Adams A8
Lotus Trumpets

I went to the exhibit for 2 days and played a bunch of horns for at least 10 hours total. I decided on the Thane Performance by the end of my second day.
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puzzleheadedcow
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericmpena wrote:
Favorite horns:
Tumultus
Thane Performance
Adams A4LT

Disappointing horns:
Bach Mariachi
Adams A8
Lotus Trumpets

I went to the exhibit for 2 days and played a bunch of horns for at least 10 hours total. I decided on the Thane Performance by the end of my second day.


Sorry but what's a Tumultus?

Also interesting Lotus is low on the list why so?

Did you try the new Yamaha horns?

PHC
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a friend who attended who raved about the Thane Performance as well. I guess Thane sold a good portion of the horns he brought to the show, so congrats to him and his team!

Trent Austin is a dealer of Tumultus and has a video or two up on Youtube about them.

What was disappointing about the Bach Mariachi, Eric? Just curious.
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

puzzleheadedcow wrote:
ericmpena wrote:
Favorite horns:
Tumultus
Thane Performance
Adams A4LT

Disappointing horns:
Bach Mariachi
Adams A8
Lotus Trumpets

I went to the exhibit for 2 days and played a bunch of horns for at least 10 hours total. I decided on the Thane Performance by the end of my second day.


Sorry but what's a Tumultus?

Also interesting Lotus is low on the list why so?

Did you try the new Yamaha horns?

PHC


Tumultus is made by Martin Böhme in Germany. Great sounding horn and plays super smooth. It took a noticeable amount more effort than the Thane to project the sound, which is my main reason for not purchasing the Tumultus. If I hadn’t fell in love with the Thane, I probably would’ve bought the Tumultus.

Lotus horns played okay…but not for $6k. They didn’t wow me at all, and honestly the came across as snobby. The horns take a lot of mixing and matching to find what you’re looking for. And even after spending maybe 25-30 minutes with different combinations, I did not love the results.

I did try the Yamaha horns, but not sure which ones were “new” models. I tried pretty much every model they had there and the artist models felt great. I will say that right after I tried the Bach horns and there was a large bore Bach that was my favorite horn out of Yamaha and Bach. I don’t remember exactly the model, but I do remember it saying L bore.
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I had a friend who attended who raved about the Thane Performance as well. I guess Thane sold a good portion of the horns he brought to the show, so congrats to him and his team!

Trent Austin is a dealer of Tumultus and has a video or two up on Youtube about them.

What was disappointing about the Bach Mariachi, Eric? Just curious.


Thane trumpets are insane. For me, the larger 72 bell changed the horn completely and made me fall in love with it.

Tumultus horns are super hard to find since they sell quickly. Trent said the Tumultus they took had just arrived to the shop when they were leaving to ITG. And it sold at the show by the 1st day.

The Bach Mariachi honestly felt too similar to every other Bach, except for the Large bore model that I played. The Mariachi had a tight blow, smaller sound than I was looking for, and overall just wasn’t impressive…especially for the $4200 price tag that it was listed at.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericmpena wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I had a friend who attended who raved about the Thane Performance as well. I guess Thane sold a good portion of the horns he brought to the show, so congrats to him and his team!

Trent Austin is a dealer of Tumultus and has a video or two up on Youtube about them.

What was disappointing about the Bach Mariachi, Eric? Just curious.


Thane trumpets are insane. For me, the larger 72 bell changed the horn completely and made me fall in love with it.

Tumultus horns are super hard to find since they sell quickly. Trent said the Tumultus they took had just arrived to the shop when they were leaving to ITG. And it sold at the show by the 1st day.

The Bach Mariachi honestly felt too similar to every other Bach, except for the Large bore model that I played. The Mariachi had a tight blow, smaller sound than I was looking for, and overall just wasn’t impressive…especially for the $4200 price tag that it was listed at.


My first and primary good horn is a Bach 72 bell (regular weight, reversed leadpipe), so the Thane 72 is very high on my list of dream horns were I ever to upgrade, particularly since it is more or less the same price as getting a new Bach these days. And as far as I know, you can't get a Bach 72 bell in anything but yellow brass.

It just occurred to me that I have no idea what differentiates the Bach Mariachi and the Bach Commercial, and even looking at their website they are quite close in spec. I really really like the look of a bronze bell, but I must admit I've never had the chance to play one.
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bebiperez
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone try the new Eb/D by Carol Brass?
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falado
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I just ordered a Thane Performance large bell.

Dave
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Stradbrother
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
ericmpena wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I had a friend who attended who raved about the Thane Performance as well. I guess Thane sold a good portion of the horns he brought to the show, so congrats to him and his team!

Trent Austin is a dealer of Tumultus and has a video or two up on Youtube about them.

What was disappointing about the Bach Mariachi, Eric? Just curious.


Thane trumpets are insane. For me, the larger 72 bell changed the horn completely and made me fall in love with it.

Tumultus horns are super hard to find since they sell quickly. Trent said the Tumultus they took had just arrived to the shop when they were leaving to ITG. And it sold at the show by the 1st day.

The Bach Mariachi honestly felt too similar to every other Bach, except for the Large bore model that I played. The Mariachi had a tight blow, smaller sound than I was looking for, and overall just wasn’t impressive…especially for the $4200 price tag that it was listed at.


My first and primary good horn is a Bach 72 bell (regular weight, reversed leadpipe), so the Thane 72 is very high on my list of dream horns were I ever to upgrade, particularly since it is more or less the same price as getting a new Bach these days. And as far as I know, you can't get a Bach 72 bell in anything but yellow brass.

It just occurred to me that I have no idea what differentiates the Bach Mariachi and the Bach Commercial, and even looking at their website they are quite close in spec. I really really like the look of a bronze bell, but I must admit I've never had the chance to play one.


Honestly, I think its just the name. I know some Mariachi players that make some crazy money in southern California playing for big events and they are big on their Benges and Olds horns, but as soon as the Mariachi was announced they all had to go try it.
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

falado wrote:
Hi, I just ordered a Thane Performance large bell.

Dave


Nice! You’ll love it.
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puzzleheadedcow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those Thane trumpets must be cool. Seems lots of folks like them. Didn't he used to work for Monette?

Are the Lotus horns the same as the Resonance ones? They sure seem similar.

PHC
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

puzzleheadedcow wrote:
Those Thane trumpets must be cool. Seems lots of folks like them. Didn't he used to work for Monette?

Are the Lotus horns the same as the Resonance ones? They sure seem similar.

PHC


Yes, Logan Thane Brown worked at Monette for 8 years, then he left in 2019 to continue building horns under his own name. And his horns are very, very good.

I think Lotus is trying to be a competitor to AR Resonance. I’ve never played on a Resonance, but my friend traded his Monette for an AR Resonance and says he loves it.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stradbrother wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
ericmpena wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I had a friend who attended who raved about the Thane Performance as well. I guess Thane sold a good portion of the horns he brought to the show, so congrats to him and his team!

Trent Austin is a dealer of Tumultus and has a video or two up on Youtube about them.

What was disappointing about the Bach Mariachi, Eric? Just curious.


Thane trumpets are insane. For me, the larger 72 bell changed the horn completely and made me fall in love with it.

Tumultus horns are super hard to find since they sell quickly. Trent said the Tumultus they took had just arrived to the shop when they were leaving to ITG. And it sold at the show by the 1st day.

The Bach Mariachi honestly felt too similar to every other Bach, except for the Large bore model that I played. The Mariachi had a tight blow, smaller sound than I was looking for, and overall just wasn’t impressive…especially for the $4200 price tag that it was listed at.


My first and primary good horn is a Bach 72 bell (regular weight, reversed leadpipe), so the Thane 72 is very high on my list of dream horns were I ever to upgrade, particularly since it is more or less the same price as getting a new Bach these days. And as far as I know, you can't get a Bach 72 bell in anything but yellow brass.

It just occurred to me that I have no idea what differentiates the Bach Mariachi and the Bach Commercial, and even looking at their website they are quite close in spec. I really really like the look of a bronze bell, but I must admit I've never had the chance to play one.


Honestly, I think its just the name. I know some Mariachi players that make some crazy money in southern California playing for big events and they are big on their Benges and Olds horns, but as soon as the Mariachi was announced they all had to go try it.


Too funny! And my Kanstul 991, which is more or less a Conn Connstellation 38B clone (.438 bore, 5 1/4 inch bell, wide wrap, but with a copper leadpipe, silver and not nickel plating, and monel valves instead of stainless stell) was originally marketed as the Mariachi Deluxe. Per Kanstul they did this because they noticed lots of Mariachi players favoring 38Bs.
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1958 Olds Ambassador
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stradbrother wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:

It just occurred to me that I have no idea what differentiates the Bach Mariachi and the Bach Commercial, and even looking at their website they are quite close in spec. I really really like the look of a bronze bell, but I must admit I've never had the chance to play one.


Honestly, I think its just the name. I know some Mariachi players that make some crazy money in southern California playing for big events and they are big on their Benges and Olds horns, but as soon as the Mariachi was announced they all had to go try it.


The Bach Commercial uses the #1 bell taper, originally the "T" bell, designed in 1924 when cultural perception of trumpet tone was exceptionally bright (CG Conn used the words "Strident and Piercing"). It was the first bell Bach designed, and the first on a Bach made horn that he chose to perform on.

The Bach Mariachi uses a #43 bell taper, which was designed in 1950 in the context of a very different cultural concept of trumpet sound - one that was much fuller and warmer. It's shape includes the unique geometry at the throat that Bach pioneered on the #6 bell, and used on most bells thereafter, which gives us that mid-tone bump in the curve we call classic "Bach core".

Both are modified in these instances to move a little closer to one another - but "closer" is not "close". The Commercial's bronze bell attenuates the upper end of the high portion of the curve, preventing it becoming strident, and allowing it to sound more inline with other modern trumpets. It is annealed to also help attenuate the upper curve. The Mariachi also has a bronze bell, however, one that is uniquely under-annealed - primarily to add edge to the tone with ease. The flexibility of the 43 bell to be strong in the highs is somewhat muted, but not to the same extent as the hardness of the bronze impedes its damping effect until the very high end where "noise" frequencies reside from our ears' perspective.

The geometry of the 1 bell makes it fairly resistant to player input and mouthpiece choice, while the 43 is one of Bach's most compliant bells in that regard.

When you think "Mariachi", it is a pure trumpet sound, very raw, very edgy - centered in the curve. Commercial sound tends to the bright side, with penetrating power and clarity. The Bach Mariachi targets the market that favors old 38Bs (with under-annealed bells) and old 70s Eternas (with under-annealed bells). The Commercial on the other hand is meant to target buyers of vintage Calicchio 1s2 and 1s7 horns, as well as assorted work-hardened Benges - but with a hint of contemporary sound concept layered in thanks to the bronze.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Stradbrother wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:

It just occurred to me that I have no idea what differentiates the Bach Mariachi and the Bach Commercial, and even looking at their website they are quite close in spec. I really really like the look of a bronze bell, but I must admit I've never had the chance to play one.


Honestly, I think its just the name. I know some Mariachi players that make some crazy money in southern California playing for big events and they are big on their Benges and Olds horns, but as soon as the Mariachi was announced they all had to go try it.


The Bach Commercial uses the #1 bell taper, originally the "T" bell, designed in 1924 when cultural perception of trumpet tone was exceptionally bright (CG Conn used the words "Strident and Piercing"). It was the first bell Bach designed, and the first on a Bach made horn that he chose to perform on.

The Bach Mariachi uses a #43 bell taper, which was designed in 1950 in the context of a very different cultural concept of trumpet sound - one that was much fuller and warmer. It's shape includes the unique geometry at the throat that Bach pioneered on the #6 bell, and used on most bells thereafter, which gives us that mid-tone bump in the curve we call classic "Bach core".

Both are modified in these instances to move a little closer to one another - but "closer" is not "close". The Commercial's bronze bell attenuates the upper end of the high portion of the curve, preventing it becoming strident, and allowing it to sound more inline with other modern trumpets. It is annealed to also help attenuate the upper curve. The Mariachi also has a bronze bell, however, one that is uniquely under-annealed - primarily to add edge to the tone with ease. The flexibility of the 43 bell to be strong in the highs is somewhat muted, but not to the same extent as the hardness of the bronze impedes its damping effect until the very high end where "noise" frequencies reside from our ears' perspective.

The geometry of the 1 bell makes it fairly resistant to player input and mouthpiece choice, while the 43 is one of Bach's most compliant bells in that regard.

When you think "Mariachi", it is a pure trumpet sound, very raw, very edgy - centered in the curve. Commercial sound tends to the bright side, with penetrating power and clarity. The Bach Mariachi targets the market that favors old 38Bs (with under-annealed bells) and old 70s Eternas (with under-annealed bells). The Commercial on the other hand is meant to target buyers of vintage Calicchio 1s2 and 1s7 horns, as well as assorted work-hardened Benges - but with a hint of contemporary sound concept layered in thanks to the bronze.


Thanks for the info! I had literally never heard of Bach's #1 or #6 bells before (save for reading on Bach's website that the Commercial has a #1 bell the other day). So would it be fair to say that Vincent Bach was inspired with the #1 bell by horns like the Conn 2B or 22B, given your relayed descriptions of strident and piercing?

Per your description it sounds like the Bach Mariachi is ultimately a more flexible horn in terms of timbre and setting. It's a shame they're all so gruesomely expensive these days. Perhaps I will stumble across an inexpensive bronze-belled Reynolds Contempora one of these days, as I recently happened with the solid nickel silver Reynolds Argenta I picked up (what a fascinating horn it is!), and in so doing get acquainted with bronze horns.
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1958 Olds Ambassador
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
So would it be fair to say that Vincent Bach was inspired with the #1 bell by horns like the Conn 2B or 22B, given your relayed descriptions of strident and piercing?

No, that quote of C.G. Conn dates from 1911, and the 2B was designed in 1926 after styles began to change. The 22B predates the Bach 1, but was also created at Conn after Carl Greenleaf bought the company and completely transformed (modernized) the line-up. 22Bs are not stridently bright in the way an earlier Conn Symphony or the Bach 1 were. I believe the T or 1 bell was inspired by looking for a Besson style bell (Bach sold custom-made F.Bessons) with more of the palate of the New Holton Trumpet he had played originally.

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Per your description it sounds like the Bach Mariachi is ultimately a more flexible horn in terms of timbre and setting.

Hmmm, the 43 bell does lend itself to more flexibility, but the under-annealing in this case really limits that, and makes it pretty consistently edgy.
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www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s good to be familiar with the specific designs of a horn, but that doesn’t make a horn fit you any better. Example: I play mariachi for a living and didn’t hear anything more mariachi about the Bach Mariachi.

From my experience, every Bach sounded and felt similar…regardless of the model. The only Bach that was different and IMO better just happened to be their large bore model. And I had that opinion before knowing it was a large bore horn.

I recommend play testing horns without looking at the details first. That’ll keep you from being influenced on what you want to hear or feel from the horn.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericmpena wrote:
It’s good to be familiar with the specific designs of a horn, but that doesn’t make a horn fit you any better. Example: I play mariachi for a living and didn’t hear anything more mariachi about the Bach Mariachi.

From my experience, every Bach sounded and felt similar…regardless of the model. The only Bach that was different and IMO better just happened to be their large bore model. And I had that opinion before knowing it was a large bore horn.

I recommend play testing horns without looking at the details first. That’ll keep you from being influenced on what you want to hear or feel from the horn.


All very sage advice! And one of the great quirks of playing the trumpet is that a horn or mouthpiece that is life-altering for Person A might be utterly useless to Person B.

I agree about not getting hung up on details or "Ohhhh that horn looks nice and therefore I must have it." When I went to ITG in Miami a few years ago I found some horns that were on my longtime dream list didn't suit me at all, and others that I had never thought about were superbly suited for me - not that I'm in any rush to have a new primary horn! Secondary horns are another matter;-)
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1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
So would it be fair to say that Vincent Bach was inspired with the #1 bell by horns like the Conn 2B or 22B, given your relayed descriptions of strident and piercing?

No, that quote of C.G. Conn dates from 1911, and the 2B was designed in 1926 after styles began to change. The 22B predates the Bach 1, but was also created at Conn after Carl Greenleaf bought the company and completely transformed (modernized) the line-up. 22Bs are not stridently bright in the way an earlier Conn Symphony or the Bach 1 were. I believe the T or 1 bell was inspired by looking for a Besson style bell (Bach sold custom-made F.Bessons) with more of the palate of the New Holton Trumpet he had played originally.

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Per your description it sounds like the Bach Mariachi is ultimately a more flexible horn in terms of timbre and setting.

Hmmm, the 43 bell does lend itself to more flexibility, but the under-annealing in this case really limits that, and makes it pretty consistently edgy.


That's a lot of history! At least Carl Greenleaf didn't further complicate/confuse things by renaming G. C. Conn to C. G. Conn

Bronze bell curiosity aside, if I were to replace my primary axe (the Bach regular weight 72 bell in my signature), it would almost certainly be with another 72-stye bell from a Bach, Shires, Thane, etc.
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1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
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