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Mild Throat Burning



 
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coraltrpt
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Joined: 18 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:29 pm    Post subject: Mild Throat Burning Reply with quote

I just received a vintage horn last week after having it restored. The horn plays beautifully. That's not the problem.

I get a little burning sensation in the back of my throat after playing it for more than 5 minutes. I don't know what's going on - this doesn't happen on any of my other horns.

I tried cleaning it twice and switched to bio oil and it's still happening. The leadpipe has a little raw brass exposed. Could this be the problem?

Is it wise to try and sonically clean a vintage horn? Should I try and have the leadpipe re-plated?

For reference, it's a Mahillon Bb trumpet from the 1930s. The leadpipe goes directly into the valve casing at the first valve. My first thought was that the valve oil is getting into my throat.

In any case, I don't want to play it if it's unhealthy. Any help is much appreciated!
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any chance there's mold or mildew in the case?
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be getting the aerosolized dust from the inside of the horn, either from the bell or via backflow (air flow in trumpet is minimal, hence backflow can occur). This is likely not healthy. A chem clean or ultrasonic clean could help, depending on the degree of contamination. Typically, the disturbed dust would contain a variety of bacteria and fungi as well as spores.

Check out "hypersensitivity pneumonia" which is also encountered among brass players.

https://internationalmusician.org/cleaning-your-wind-instrument/

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/312461#Antigens-found-in-bagpipes-could-cause-hypersensitivity-pneumonitis
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coraltrpt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been outside of a case on a stand.

My next question: if I have this old horn cleaned in a sonic cleaner will it damage the instrument? Create new leaks? I've heard this can happen.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coraltrpt wrote:
It's been outside of a case on a stand.

My next question: if I have this old horn cleaned in a sonic cleaner will it damage the instrument? Create new leaks? I've heard this can happen.


Aggressive cleaning techniques will have aggressive results. Both chem and ultrasonic cleanings unavoidably take a toll on the original fabric.

If this is a result of penetrating oils having been used to free frozen slides, etc., then you may be facing a long road in terms of light ends leaching back out for some time to come. MANY dawn soap based cleanings can essentially help to degrease the horn, but its like trying to get all the oil out of bearing bronze - brass horns hang on to it.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

If this is a result of penetrating oils having been used to free frozen slides, etc., then you may be facing a long road in terms of light ends leaching back out for some time to come. MANY dawn soap based cleanings can essentially help to degrease the horn, but its like trying to get all the oil out of bearing bronze - brass horns hang on to it.


Ron,

I have used cider vinegar to strip away residue from original Tromba valve oil, which had built up a gumminess that I could not get off any other way. It worked when I submerged the parts in a jar for 20-30 minutes and wiped vinegar on the exposed inner slide tubes on the horn.

Do you think that might also give a good result with penetrating oils?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:

If this is a result of penetrating oils having been used to free frozen slides, etc., then you may be facing a long road in terms of light ends leaching back out for some time to come. MANY dawn soap based cleanings can essentially help to degrease the horn, but its like trying to get all the oil out of bearing bronze - brass horns hang on to it.


Ron,

I have used cider vinegar to strip away residue from original Tromba valve oil, which had built up a gumminess that I could not get off any other way. It worked when I submerged the parts in a jar for 20-30 minutes and wiped vinegar on the exposed inner slide tubes on the horn.

Do you think that might also give a good result with penetrating oils?


I'm actually surprised that had such an effect - unless the "gumminess" was mineral-based.

If you think about salad dressing, oil+vinegar is not a solution, its an emulsion created by mechanical effort - because vinegar is not a very effective organic solvent. Everclear on the other hand would certainly dissolve oils, but with alcohol's affinity for water, would probably leave much of the oil behind the moment you start to rinse.

I don't know how Dawn works chemically, but somehow it breaks oil apart, somewhat like a solvent, but then retains it as the soap is rinsed away, carrying the oil off in the process.

Since in this case, that oil is soaked-in, its not that easy. I have tried alcohol followed by dawn with some noticeable effect. Why some horns hang onto oil and others clean easily, I don't know. Possibly lead from soldering and bending factors in on vintage horns.

So I doubt vinegar would have the desired effect - and as it can etch a granite countertop, I would worry the acids may take away zinc instead. (And, of course, we protect granite countertops against acid etching by vinegar, lemon, etc. with oil, so I take that as another indicator)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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derekthor
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Joined: 01 Oct 2012
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say that the horn was "restored", so I'd assume that it was cleaned as part of that process. Do you have an invoice with all the details? The first thing that comes to mind is that the cleaning chemicals weren't neutralized properly at the end of the cleaning process. Give it a good soak in Dawn while scrubbing everything out, then see if that helps.

If it wasn't cleaned as part of the restoration process, then I'd obviously get that done professionally. Speaking as a tech, I personally wouldn't but a horn that old through an ultrasonic, and I'd still check every solder joint for leaks afterwards.
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