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thecoast Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 138 Location: San Bernardino County, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:23 am Post subject: When did Yamaha horns get accepted as mainstream pro? |
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Given the notorious disdain of pro players on this forum for even the best Chinese horns (Taiwan excepted depending on your geopolitical understanding), does anybody know when and how Japan’s Yamaha pro horns began to be accepted by American professionals as legitimately pro instruments? Taiwan seems to be enjoying acceptance. India is where Japan and China used to be in terms of perception (whether accurate or not, I don’t know for certain). And a doctoral project states (with some ambiguity) that the YTR-6335 (1984?) was Yamaha’s first pro horn. (See “Selected Manufacturer's Professional Trumpet Component Specifications: A Compendium of Measurements, Materials, and Playing Characteristics”, p.40, at https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7457&context=etd). This doctoral document also states on the same page that Yamaha was copying Bach pro horns (rather than Schilke horns as has been shared elsewhere on this forum). Any opinions supported by documentation would be welcome. _________________ —Bach Omega
—Yamaha 631G flugelhorn w/ Warburton 1FLX
—John Packer JP272 tenor horn w/Denis Wick 3
—Yamaha YTS-354 trombone
—King 627 “baritonium”
—Akai EWI 5000 |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:49 am Post subject: Re: When did Yamaha horns get accepted as mainstream pro? |
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thecoast wrote: | India is where Japan and China used to be in terms of perception (whether accurate or not, I don’t know for certain). |
Just an observation-I lived in Japan in the mid to late 60s and, while the trumpets couldn't match Bachs, Getzens etc., they were still adequate. Indian instruments, in my experience, are atrocious. I don't think a Japanese instrument was that bad except for, MAYBE, at the end of WWII. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 927 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Good question. I recall them appearing around the early seventies. The rumour was that their metallurgy was suspect that there were recycled car bumpers involved in my their manufacture. I was at NTSU visiting a friend in 1973 and there was a player using one. He seemed to be embarrassed about it although he sounded great Maybe the endorsement of the Canadian Brass was the impetus for the popularization of the brand. The ramblings of n old man. |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I think Yamaha would disagree that the 6xxx series was their first foray into the pro markey. The 6xx/7xx series, which were based on Schilke designs (and with Ren Schilke as a consultant) were supposed to be professional instruments.
It's hard to give an exact date on when they became "accepted". The ballpark would be 1980 to 1990 or so. You are probably not going to find an exact data - on Tuesday theyw ere considered junk, but on Wednesday they were considered some of the best in the world. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 684 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone tell me who, or what criteria, define what is a "professional instrument?" I have, of course, been aware of the early "Yamalloy" problems, and a good friend did have a Schilke B3 so afflicted.
Having said that, I have owned several 600 and 700 series Bb and Eb/D trumpets (I still own 3). I readily admit that I have never depended on my musical skills for my bread and board, but I have been more or less constantly involved in trumpet and cornet playing, including completed undergraduate college curricula, and more public performances than I will ever recall. Having said that, the quality, reliability, and efficacy of design as well as ease and quality of tone of all those first generation instruments would work for me in just about any setting, back when, or now!
I was in college in the late 60's and 70's when I first heard of a "motorcycle company" offering a full line of instruments. In fact, the first Yamaha trumpet catalogue I saw was sent to my sister by a "pen pal" of hers from Tokyo with penciled in English translation of some of the instruments. Admittedly, initial reluctance of interest in those early offerings may have had something to do with a slow uptake. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | Can anyone tell me who, or what criteria, define what is a "professional instrument?" |
As Potter Stewart once said, "I know it when I see it." |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Uberopa wrote: | I recall them appearing around the early seventies. The rumour was that their metallurgy was suspect that there were recycled car bumpers involved in my their manufacture. I was at NTSU visiting a friend in 1973 and there was a player using one. He seemed to be embarrassed about it . .. |
I believe Yanaha (Nippon Gakki) made their first trumpets in the mid 60s. Japan was beyond making consumer goods from discarded Budweiser beer cans by then. I was at NTSU/UNT from 70-73 and never heard about a Yamaha trumpet used by college students but I know the trumpets were made because I used to see them at Nippon Gakki in Tokyo, although they might've said Nippon Gakki and not Yamaha. (Lomg time ago.)
Just an aside, I bought a Pocket Trumpet, (and later choose one for Jimmy Nottingham) and they were pretty decent instruments so, I guess the trumpets were the same. But I think the brasses at that time were the equivalent of today's good intermediate horn. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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thecoast Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 138 Location: San Bernardino County, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a timeline that confirms not only that Yamaha asked Shilke to join them "as a brass instruments development consultant" (1966), but also shows when their first horns came out (YTR-1 trumpet, 1966); when their "Professional" wind instruments were exhibited at the Chicago NAMM Show (1967) and then launched (1967-69); and when their first "Custom" trumpets were introduced (1970). The "Pro Model Trumpet" (meaning the Bobby Shew 6310z) was released in 1991. So I guess the definition of "Pro" and "Professional" might be differentiated by some marketing criteria? Hmm.🤔
https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/winds/50th/index.html#d968779 _________________ —Bach Omega
—Yamaha 631G flugelhorn w/ Warburton 1FLX
—John Packer JP272 tenor horn w/Denis Wick 3
—Yamaha YTS-354 trombone
—King 627 “baritonium”
—Akai EWI 5000 |
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Big C Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2018 Posts: 53 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I can tell you that Yamahas were well "accepted" by 1978.
That was the year I finally decided to get a good horn. I had a little bit of an "in" with one of the owners of the top store in my area (Best Music in Oakland, CA), so when I came in, they took care of me. The first two horns they brought out for me to play were a Bach and a Yamaha and the guy spoke about them as if they were on the same level.
After I played them (I'm not gonna lie, I didn't really know what I was doing), he brought out a Getzen. Said it was also good and somewhat less expensive... "a real hot rod", he said. Those last two factors sold me on the Eterna Severinsen (also Doc) and I ended up getting that, but the point is, they were presenting Yamaha right alongside Bach in 1978. _________________ '78 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
'59 Reynolds Argenta cornet |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:05 am Post subject: |
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The question is probably also, "accepted where?" The predecessor Nikkan trumpets still show up in East Asia and I think they had a pretty good reputation in the region even in the 60s or earlier.
I remember the Yamaha discussion being part of the general 80s US anxiety over Japan's rise and a lot of criticism that Japan was copying US products. In retrospect, it looks more like US manufacturing was failing and with trumpets it certainly seems like everyone copies everyone. It turns out Yamaha is just a great manufacturer.
My brother played trumpet in the late 1980s and I remember trumpet players feeling torn that Yamaha seemed to be producing better instruments more cheaply. |
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a.kemp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 677 Location: NYC
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Certainly, the 6xx and 7xx began to get a slight foothold on the market.
But, when the 6335/5345/6445 came out, it definitely elevated Yamaha.
It was these models that really started Bob Malone’s conversions and people began to see what a Yamaha can really be!
Then the my added the H models and soon the II models which began to get some notice from some significant orchestral players in the US. |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:12 am Post subject: |
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https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Biography_and_Background.html
[/Quote]Schilke loyalist: In 1970, Schilke wrote:
One of the main things that attracts me to Yamaha, in spite of criticism from home for sharing trade secrets, is the fact that the company shares my philosophy of pushing ahead with development of improvements even though the market does not demand them. From a strictly business point of view, such research and development outlays may appear wasteful, but the great progress made by Yamaha in developing their present piano line from its early very ordinary stages, suggested that we shared the same artistic considerations. And in truth, no real development of brass instruments had been seen since 1884 when Victor Mahillon designed them in the shape and style still in use.
Nearly all of the early Yamaha trumpets had clear Schilke design influence and, though that relationship has been over for almost twenty years, the Yamaha professional lightweight trumpets still bear very clear relationship with their Schilke forebears. For example, The Yamaha YTR 6310Z began its life as a copy of the Schilke B6, a medium step-bore design. Though the Yamaha has been through several models (the YTR 732, YTR 636, 736, 6310, 6310B and the 6310Z) it remains visually identical to the Schilke with the exception, of course, of Schilke's trademark hexagonal valve caps, buttons, and braces. Yamaha mouthpieces share the Schilke labeling system. The Yamaha trumpet line also included copies of the B5 and X3 for almost 30 years.[/Quote]
From my perspective, it seemed to me that Yamaha was going after a lot of pro’s to help promote their horns. It sure seems like a lot of Pros are Yamaha artists, and some of those signature models may be based off their other branded horn the previously used with some tweaks. Again, just what it looked like from my side over the years… they make good quality horns and the past is the past. They have become the power house they are, so in the end, unless for research, does it really matter?
Why did Ferrari become so respected? Reliable cars? 😇 Good designs? Racing? Just good marketing?
-marc |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4806
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chrisf3000 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 Posts: 346 Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:21 am Post subject: |
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If the question is "when did Yamaha start making decent horns?" the answer would be by the 70's with Schilke's influence. Many players in the 70's and 80's had a Yamaha flugel, Eb, D or piccolo trumpet on the side, added to their collection. Not too sure how many orchestral players actually played C or Bb Yamaha's in an orchestra. These horns play well, but a little light and bright. However, if you're asking when they became a mainstream pro horn where it could truly hold its own, I would absolutely agree with Andy.
a.kemp wrote: | Certainly, the 6xx and 7xx began to get a slight foothold on the market.
But, when the 6335/5345/6445 came out, it definitely elevated Yamaha.
It was these models that really started Bob Malone’s conversions and people began to see what a Yamaha can really be!
Then the my added the H models and soon the II models which began to get some notice from some significant orchestral players in the US. |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="huntman10"]Can anyone tell me who, or what criteria, define what is a "professional instrument?" I have, of course, been aware of the early "Yamalloy" problems, and a good friend did have a Schilke B3so afflicted.
FYI The Schilke B3 never had Yamaha valves. They were only on the ML bore MI, MII, B1, B2, and B5. I fitted valves at the Schilke factory, so my info is 1st hand. |
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Tom LeCompte wrote: |
It's hard to give an exact date on when they became "accepted". The ballpark would be 1980 to 1990 or so. |
When I graduated in '79, they were for the kids who couldn't afford a Bach, and only wealthy families would buy a Schilke (I bought my first one as a college frosh that year).
I would say mid-late 80s, when the Japanese car reached a better level of quality than the US. |
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agroovin48 Regular Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2014 Posts: 94 Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: When did Yamaha horns get accepted as mainstream pro? |
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1978 was my first comeback. At that time I began taking lessons from Alan Briggs who was a trumpeter with the Phoenix Symphony Orchestra. Alan played a Yamaha C trumpet. _________________ agroovin48
Alan Cahill
1933 Conn Victor 80A Cornet
King Legend 2070
Adams A1V2
Last edited by agroovin48 on Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:46 am; edited 2 times in total |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 684 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Ed Kennedy"] huntman10 wrote: | Can anyone tell me who, or what criteria, define what is a "professional instrument?" I have, of course, been aware of the early "Yamalloy" problems, and a good friend did have a Schilke B3so afflicted.
FYI The Schilke B3 never had Yamaha valves. They were only on the ML bore MI, MII, B1, B2, and B5. I fitted valves at the Schilke factory, so my info is 1st hand. |
Wow, apologies. Either a B2 or the ever-present misdiagnosis. It was 30 years ago last I saw it. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Notlem wrote: | https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Biography_and_Background.html
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Why did Ferrari become so respected? Reliable cars? 😇 Good designs? Racing? Just good marketing?
-marc[/quote]
Racing, performance, and GREAT marketing, they figure out what the demand is and build less than that. |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Shark01 wrote: | I would say mid-late 80s, when the Japanese car reached a better level of quality than the US. |
I think it's going to be hard to pin down to better than a decade. Certainly the answer will not be "April 23, 1987; a Thursday, I believe".
My "sometime in the 1980's" has poeople discussing earlier than that, and later than that, in roughly equal numbers. So I don't think it's too far off. I haven't heard anyone argue that it was earlier than 1970 or later than 1990. I don't even think anyone is saying earlier than 1975 or later than 1985. |
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