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Yet another embouchure change question!



 
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Ebb
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:52 am    Post subject: Yet another embouchure change question! Reply with quote

I'm a new member, but been reading posts here since I started trumpet at age 52 (3 years ago). I have pored over many embouchure question threads, watched the videos referenced, etc. The more I practice and experiment, the better I understand the suggestions.

Brief background: I started on clarinet in my 40s but switched to trumpet 3 years ago. Playing clarinet prepared me well for ample trumpet airflow. I play in a fun band that understands mistakes happen (helps with relaxing). Took remote/zoom lessons from a tutor I like, during the pandemic. Had a couple of in person lessons earlier this year, finally. I feel like the zoom lessons definitely had their limits regarding embouchure input, and tone. I have an overbite and not very thick lips.

Until now I have developed my embouchure in a way that let me keep expanding my range upwards but didn't address a shallow tone. This was pinched and pressed and yielded thin, strained sounds. I also have noticed that my tone in the lower 'easier' registers was also thin and lacking something my band mates had, who've been playing for decades. I thought it was the instrument itself until one of them guest-played mine and it sounded beautiful! I recently saw a video of myself playing and realized I looked like I'm either sipping a hot drink, or trying to projectile-spit into the mouthpiece . I noticed the beautiful-toned players had a completely different posture and embouchure.

At home I decided to copy what the other players looked like they were doing and boom! I suddenly heard the most amazing, resonant and full tone coming out of my own trumpet.

What I did was to bring my chin and entire head angle down (keeping the horn as I always did - mostly straight out, not pointing towards the floor or sky). When I did that, I had to jut my bottom lip/jaw out slightly to reach the mouthpiece. I think this opened up my mouth and maybe adjusted the direction of the airflow? I was elated about this.

This also brought the MP upwards over my top lip completely. My much thicker-lipped tutor advised the 2/3 upper lip coverage thing but since I don't have much top lip, I was just strangling it by having the rim on it. With my new embouchure, my entire top lip is inside the MP and my bottom lip feels like it's almost falling out the bottom of the rim.

My range has gone from between (strangled and pinched) bottom F# up to (strangled and pinched) first B above the staff, to nice clear, full tones between lowest D to G on top of the staff. I can't get anything higher or lower than that, which concerns me. Although my highest pitches now are crystal clear and almost feel effortless. At first I thought I must be cheating to get those tones.

NOW I understand that to reach those higher, clear notes I need to give it faster air and can achieve that exaggeratedly now with quick puffs, as I call them. And not smoosh the mouthpiece into my lips as I was doing before. I'm glad to finally understand what people are talking about on that one now.

However, my bottom notes are non existent, as are notes above G on top of the staff. The bottom notes have nothing to work with because of my bottom lip position and I can't figure out a way to quickly adjust it without totally adjusting the horn position. If I change the position of my bottom lip to play the lower notes, then use the same position to try play the now newly beautiful tones, I can't play those higher pitches at all.

I don't think getting those lower notes again is just a question of adjusting to my new embouchure because there are only air sounds coming out.

How can I get the bottom notes again while keeping the newly beautiful higher notes in my range?

I'm not clear about lip tension, mouth corners, lip stretching - smiling vs not smiling. I don't know if I'm doing any of that right with my new embouchure, or how much difference it'll make to my tone and endurance. Every tiny tweak takes a long time to test and everybody's mouths are different.

Aside from suggestions (most welcome!) based on my description here, if anybody can recommend a tutor who might be able to help me figure it out, please do. My tutor is unavailable until the end of August but I need to be better at this for performances later this year. I at least need to know I'm on the right track. I can live with range limitations as long as I feel like it'll just take some time to get there and that I'm practicing right.
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Came to trumpet in my 50s. Female. Feel free to give me hints and tips! I'll try 'em. Continually learning.


Last edited by Ebb on Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's important to NOT use clarinet embouchure methods with trumpet.

It seems odd that your tutors have not been more successful in helping you find a good mouthpiece placement location on your lips. Unless your lips and teeth are very much different than typical, I suggest looking at pictures and videos of 'conventional trumpet embouchure' placement - not examples of people playing in the very high range.

You might have seen my thoughts about embouchure - but if not, they are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
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Ebb
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry - I didn't mean I was using my clarinet embouchure! Didn't mean that at all. All I meant was I came from another wind instrument, as opposed to never having played a wind instrument before.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My suggestion might be something you don't want to hear, but I would find a teacher/coach with a good track record who can see your embouchure up close. If you don't mind saying where you're located, maybe a forum member can make an appropriate suggestion of a teacher/coach.
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Ebb
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
If you don't mind saying where you're located, maybe a forum member can make an appropriate suggestion of a teacher/coach.


Sure, I'd be happy to have someone take a look at what I'm doing. I'm in the Atlanta area.

Thanks for the input.
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Ebb
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

You might have seen my thoughts about embouchure - but if not, they are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm


Thank you for the link! Much of that makes sense to me and is very helpful.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will probably save yourself a LOT of frustration if you work consistently with a good teacher. In this case I would suggest that in-person lessons would be particularly useful given your concerns about basic embouchure formation, mouthpiece, etc. Good luck!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
NOW I understand that to reach those higher, clear notes I need to give it faster air


And what is "faster air"? What exactly are you doing to make the air "faster"?
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peanuts56
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
My suggestion might be something you don't want to hear, but I would find a teacher/coach with a good track record who can see your embouchure up close. If you don't mind saying where you're located, maybe a forum member can make an appropriate suggestion of a teacher/coach.


Spot on! Searching for answers here can lead to a lot of confusion. One piece of advice may come from a Claude Gordon advocate and the next from a Roy Stevens advocate. Both may mean well but without someone guiding you through you're not going to make the progress you would be looking for.
If no qualified teachers are nearby, try Skype/online teachers. Some names in no particular order. Jim Manley, Pops McLaughlin, John Mohan, Ralph Salamone, etc.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you explain it, I think you need an up-close teacher.

Atlanta has some magnificent players from, and affiliated with,The Atlanta Symphony.
You can also check the Atlanta Pops Orch.

You can also check with the Middle Georgia Big Band. I think it's homed in Macon but some of the trumpet players may be near to you. Call the band for info.

Additionally, Atlanta has several universities in the area which might be a source of info.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do decide not to have any lessons until the person you saw before is available, here are a few thoughts that I believe will help:

Try putting the air flow and air speed concepts on one side. They only really work as metaphors, and the fact you can't play below low D (without switching to an embouchure setup to something that sounds much worse) suggests that in your case they haven't conveyed what they're supposed to. That's not intended as a criticism of you at all!

Take a bit of a break from seeking the next shift in your embouchure. I'd encourage you to practice straightforward things in your current comfortable range, with emphasis on dynamic range. Explore how much softer and louder you can play each note before the tone quality deteriorates or your control of pitch becomes insecure. Get in the habit of practicing the same short passage or exercise repeatedly at contrasting dynamics. (Personally I like the sequence of medium, then soft, then loud.)

Start cultivating awareness of how the 'blowing' sensation in your body changes with loudness. I'm only talking about the action of squeezing the air in your lungs - not any sensation at your chops that you might associate with air flow or speed.

If you can, borrow or make copies of some of your parts from the band's repertoire. Choose pieces that stay within your comfortable range, at least for a good continuous chunk if not from start to finish, and practice them with emphasis on the dynamics.

I appreciate all this might not seem terribly relevant to what you were asking but I hope it's of some help.

Mike
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would recommend posting video of yourself playing, closeup enough to get a good look at your playing setup.

Clarinet is completely dissimilar to trumpet as far as embouchure issues or general playing mechanics.
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Ebb
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. It took quite a lot of nerve for me to make an account here and ask this, so I appreciate care taken in the replies.

I haven't touched or even thought about clarinet in over three years and really wish I hadn't mentioned it in my initial post as I ditched basically everything and threw myself into trumpet, getting a tutor immediately and switching to another tutor for a better fit for my needs. Just bad timing that he's now unavailable for a while, right when I changed my embouchure. Whatever clarinet embouchure I ever had (not much) doesn't not come in to this at all.

@ Mike - yes I'll work on the 'easier' parts to our tunes, that are also now within my predictable range. And you're right, I definitely don't want to try anything else new for a while, if I have anything at all here worth working with.

@ Robert - Maybe I'll get up the nerve to post a video sometime. Thanks for the suggestion.

@ kehaulani and peanuts56 - Thanks for the recommendations!

@Dayton - thank you for the encouragement and suggestion.

@ Kalijah - If I try to describe it here I'm sure that'll be wrong somehow. I don't know what the right term is for it. I'm going off of what my tutor and other in-person trumpet friends have demonstrated and it seems to work for me to reach higher notes. It's not just 'blowing harder' for example.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ebb wrote:

Robert - Maybe I'll get up the nerve to post a video sometime. Thanks for the suggestion.

Unless we can see and hear what's going on any input is speculation. It's something that would help a lot, people rarely make the effort.
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donovan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to find the embouchure that will work best for you I'd HIGHLY recommend finding a Reinhardt teacher. Doug Elliott or Dave Sheetz could analyze your physical make up and get you on the steady track to progress.
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Ebb
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

donovan wrote:
If you want to find the embouchure that will work best for you I'd HIGHLY recommend finding a Reinhardt teacher. Doug Elliott or Dave Sheetz could analyze your physical make up and get you on the steady track to progress.


I will check into that, thanks!

Robert...I certainly could make the effort. I was tempted to feel bashful but a) trumpet would be the worst instrument to pick up in that regard, and b) why start being bashful now?
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