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No air thru the horn


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Proteus
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:17 pm    Post subject: No air thru the horn Reply with quote

For those who have not yet seen this (remarkable) demonstration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YIVc9wv6RI

And can anyone point me to the one on YouTube by Nick Drozdoff where he places the bell in the kitchen sink a super soapy solution and then plays a forte low C and then a forte high C...??[/url]
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acoustically, a trumpet is a tube closed at both ends.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not draw a false conclusion. Air flow , from the player , IS required to play. No air flow = No power. No power = no sound.
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Shifty
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Do not draw a false conclusion. Air flow , from the player , IS required to play. No air flow = No power. No power = no sound.

But the airflow FROM THE PLAYER doesn't NEED to go THROUGH the horn. (?) It normally has to, unless you're playing around like these guys.

So felt resistance is mostly acoustic (if that's the right term)?
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious.
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Last edited by stuartissimo on Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:21 pm; edited 4 times in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shifty wrote:
... So felt resistance is mostly acoustic (if that's the right term)?

----------------------------------------
There is also the 'felt resistance' associated with the size of the lip aperture and the amount of air flow.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?

The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom LeCompte wrote:
Acoustically, a trumpet is a tube closed at both ends.


Kalijah can answer with more authority, but I believe this is not the case. The tube is very clearly open on one end (and a tube closed on both ends is no longer a tube).

Robert P wrote:
Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?

The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn.


What would be the point of your demonstration, exactly? That the trumpet could be played like a trumpet? I'm not trying to be cheeky, genuinely don't understand.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?

The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn.


Listen at 6:20 in the video.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On one hand, try playing tuba some time - you CAN'T push that much air, which means that what you are doing is setting up resonance in the air inside the horn. On the other hand, it takes a lot of air to get that resonance going. The same applies to all of the brass, but the projection works differently.
But air is still very necessary.
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
but I believe this is not the case. The tube is very clearly open on one end


On the mouthpiece side, you are at a node: the waveform is driven by the velocity of the lips, not the position. As in a closed end.

On the bell side, you have a huge impedance mismatch between the air in the horn and the air outside, so 99% of the energy is reflected back, so only 1% "leaks" out. Again, a closed tube.

Most of what trumpet makers think about are deviations from this ideal. (To take an obvious example, this model states bell thicness and material are irrelevant - only the flare matters)


Last edited by Tom LeCompte on Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom LeCompte wrote:
abontrumpet wrote:
but I believe this is not the case. The tube is very clearly open on one end

On the bell side, you have a huge impedance mismatch between the air in the horn and the air outside, so 99% of the energy is reflected back, so only 1% "leaks" out. Again, a closed tube.)


Yes, it is called a closed tube but in physics that is a tube with one closed end. There is no such thing as a double closed "tube" in physics. There is open (open on both ends) and closed (open on one end closed on the other).
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Proteus
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the Nick Drozdoff vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SX4xXw_xXQ
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On the mouthpiece side, you are at a node: the waveform is driven by the velocity of the lips, not the position. As ina closed end.


The mouthpiece cup is not a node. Nor is the lip aperture.

The first node is in the vicinity of the mouthpiece throat. The final node is in the vicinity of the bell at the impedance mismatch. (A pedal tone resonance has only those two nodes. One additional node and half-wave, is added for each harmonic.

Quote:
the waveform is driven by the velocity of the lips


Perhaps you mean the frequency of pulsation. The air energy of each pulse of air through the lips replenishes the energy of each wave to restore was transmitted from the bell.

Sound power transmitted from the instrument = air power provided x efficiency

The air power applied is = air flow x air pressure

Interesting to note that the two trumpets with a common cup, as shown in the video. Would make the total "played" impedance about 1/2 as for one instrument.

That means the power input is divided between 2 instruments, The total sound output for two instruments would be about the same as for one for the same power input.


Last edited by kalijah on Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah, are you a scientist/engineer/acoustician? Of course, anyone with enough interest could gain the knowledge, so I'm curious as to the source of all your knowledge.

My question has no hidden agenda. I'm just trying to put all of this in perspective.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engineer. And trumpet player, of course.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Engineer. And trumpet player, of course.


What kind of engineer?
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?

The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn.


How about those loudspeakers that look like a trumpet (or trombone) bell? I would assume that they would create some kind of standing wage under the right conditions.

Back in the 1980's I was a plant engineer at a large coal fueled power generating station. We used huge numbers (26,880) of 30 feet long fiber bags that collected the dust from burned coal, and it was my area. I got interested in using acoustic energy (really loud sound) to release the dust from the bags.

Anyway, the sound was generated by a titanium disk resting on a round base (like a mouthpiece rim), through which 120 psi air was blown. The diaphragm was at the base of an inverted metal cone (bell) and generated sound at 140 decibels measured 35 feet from the cone. I was able to determine the best results occurred at around 1250 Hz. So I am aware of a mechanical analog, but the air flow was through the cone. I did a bit of testing, and having a gap through which the air could pass would lose acoustic energy.

The test was quite successful and acoustically enhanced cleaning became common across the industry, btw.
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Tom LeCompte
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
are you a scientist/engineer/acoustician?


Physicist. 1628 papers, 211,760 citations.

I don't like discuss the physics of the trumpet, because there is a lot of lore going around that's eitehr false, or confused. Air actually is important - but it's air past the lips that makes the sound, not the gentle breeze through theg tubing.

This is confused by the fact that with a trumpet one cannot get the lips vibrating without also blowing air down the tube, but the video shows that if you come up with a contraption to allown you to do just that, the horn speaks.
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