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What Exactly is Goldwash in c1937



 
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fluknick
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Joined: 27 Jul 2022
Posts: 6
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:02 pm    Post subject: What Exactly is Goldwash in c1937 Reply with quote

Hey everyone,
Hello and good eve.

I'm new to the forum- my name is Nick.
Thank you for allowing me to join TrumpetHerald.
As a child, I played trumpet with very bad teeth, from kindergarten until 10th grade, but played extremely well- but then got braces. The result was earth shattering, to me. Six months into the misadventure, I put my trumpet away, then eventually gave it away to a young kid that needed one.

So fast forward 900 years, I've recently purchased a used cornet, and really like it. It seems physically sound. A 1937 silver King Master, with the deco design on the bell, and with the remnants of "Goldwash" within the deco design.

We have bonded. I plan to have dents removed. Lead straightened. And then refinished- including the "Goldwash".

My questions-
What exactly is "Goldwash" (in 1937) and how was it applied within specific areas with in the design boundaries ?
What is the modern version of this ?

Those items said, I'm pleased to make everyone's acquaintance.
I shall update my profile as I go- no worries.
Hope everyone has great evenings !!!

Thank you in advance !!!
Best regards
Nick
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Halflip
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1862
Location: WI

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Goldwash" is simply gold plating of a selected area. It usually refers to gold plating on the inside of the bell flare on a horn that is otherwise mainly silver plated.

Gold plating selected areas within an engraved design is achieved by masking the areas you don't want gold-plated, and then spot-plating the whole engraved section. (The whole horn is first silver plated, of course.) Then the masking material is peeled off, and you have the desired result.

It is not easy to find someone willing to do this. Most plating companies that work on brass instruments will not undertake it. I requested renewal of such a finish on a Buescher flugelhorn that Charlie Melk was restoring for me. It took much longer than normal for the horn to get back to me; I found out later that this was because Charlie had to do the masking and gold plating himself (none of his plating resources were willing to do it). He said it is very time-consuming because you need an extremely steady hand to paint on the masking solution (this has to dry before you do the gold plating). Needless to say, Charlie wasn't crazy about doing it either.

Here is a picture of the flugelhorn after restoration:


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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"


Last edited by Halflip on Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tuningbell
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gold Washed https://www.josephjewelry.com/guide/glossary/gold+washed
gold washed | ˈgōld ˈwȯshd
adjective
A term for a piece that has an extremely thin layer of gold, applied by either dipping or burnishing the metal, but are not plated

Gold wash is a term used to describe one of several processes often related to antique and vintage silver. It consists of applying a very thin layer of gold without plating to another metal, most commonly silver. This is done by dipping or burnishing the metal, and is not as resilient to wear and handling as plating, filling, or electroplating. Other terms used to describe gold washing include silver gilt, gilt, gilded, and vermeil. The final application of gold after a gold wash is less than 0.175 microns thick and will typically wear off over time and need to be washed again to maintain its appearance.

Gold Washed https://vintageunscripted.com/2021/04/23/is-it-gold-filled-gold-plated-or-gold-washed/

Gold wash is similar to gold plating but is a much thinner coating. Usually, gold wash refers to an item that has been dipped in a thin wash of gold. It is the lowest quality of gold plating. Gold wash is not durable and wears off very easily.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuningbell wrote:
It consists of applying a very thin layer of gold without plating to another metal, most commonly silver. This is done by dipping or burnishing the metal, and is not as resilient to wear and handling as plating, filling, or electroplating.

Gold wash is similar to gold plating but is a much thinner coating. Usually, gold wash refers to an item that has been dipped in a thin wash of gold. It is the lowest quality of gold plating. Gold wash is not durable and wears off very easily.

I may be mistaken about using the term "plating", but I don't know what "a thin wash of gold" is. I have to imagine that it is liquid, or gold suspended in some sort of solution. In any case, I suspect that the masking challenges would be the same.

Perhaps a horn restorer who has done such a finish will chime in and describe the process they used. If 'regular' plating is an option, it would seem to be preferable if for no other reason than durability.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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fluknick
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Joined: 27 Jul 2022
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definately appriciate the responses.
Based on the pic, the masking effort appears as great as I imagined !
The links were perfect in explaination.

In my searches "goldwash" results were elusive 😜
So...thank you !!!
Nick
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gold plating = a layer of gold (anything from 10K to 24K) applied such that the base coat metal it is adhered to does not show through or otherwise alter the appearance of a "gold object".

Gold wash = a layer of gold (anything from 10K to 24K) applied such that the base coat metal, often silver on brass objects, has an influence on the appearance of the finish - and in the case of gold-wash bell flares over silver plating, often tarnishes

Vermeil = selectively gold plating, or otherwise bonding gold, onto a silver finish in some areas in order to accentuate the design aesthetically. Often used on sterling silver serving pieces in prior centuries, this became a popular way to accent the bell crest on horns in the late 19th century.

The gold portion of vermeil bell crests often look like gold wash, thus the mis-application of the term we often see, due to years of polishing wearing away what was once opaque gold.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clarifying, Ron! What you describe makes perfect sense to me.

I happened to be emailing Charlie Melk today, and I asked him about what is used on musical instruments when filling areas of engravings with a gold finish. He replied that nowadays anything like that on (metal) musical instruments is done via electroplating. He said he had no information on what other industries use. He also did not address what might have been done by instrument manufacturers long ago.
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"He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)

"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
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jeirvine
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Joined: 29 Apr 2022
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on the state of the current finish, it may be worth keeping it as-is. An expertly-done dent removal will do minimal damage to the existing finish. If you could post a picture, I'd love to see it. I'm a big fan of those 30's deco engravings.
_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
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fluknick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are links to images.
I don't see a way to post pics, so....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLIxd-Lldj6qNIWgTa1BP3rIevCmHrwN/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tKgS0kSfJg46k0R7Ozc4keJNga53yy83/view?usp=drivesdk

....hopefully this works !

So is the Vermeil application accurate ?
The tone ( impossible to capture on my phone ) although light, yellow, all seems to be accurately deposited within specific boundaries.

And thank you all, this is very useful info, and greatly appreciated !!!
Nick
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jeirvine
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That finish looks fine. I would just have the dents carefully dealt with. Nice horn!
_________________
1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a different model King, but gives you some idea of what the vermeil finish would look like in original condition (or in this case restored by the site owner for sale)

https://www.hnwhite.com/King/For%20Sale%20Items/212520/212520%20ST%20Cornet%20Pic%202.jpg
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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fluknick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems well cared for. The areas for the left hand are worn. There are some smallish dents. The valves are a little slow, hopefully a good cleaning will resolve. It was inexpensive and I honestly feel greatlful to own it.

Nick
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fluknick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes on the vermeil, OldSchoolEuph !!!
I've seen those models on ebay, they are lovely....
....I'd say my ultimate goal.

I'm in central Florida and any recommentation for a brass instrument person and plater would be appriciated.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may not be exactly what you are looking for, but I have a colleague in the FL Panhandle that does engraving work and plating on my personal instruments.

This is a sample of his work.
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/SjjmMR4g/Mark_s_Work.webp[/img]

He does re-engraving work and engraving restoration as well.

PM me if you want contact info.

Life is Short, find the Joy in it!

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See page 4
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/85

"Gold trimmings"
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fluknick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a mouthful, but I'm excited and happy about all of this:

Thank you Andy, that was super cool.
My cornet is prob a #3- I have the case on the left.
So my serial numbers, 191xxx, based on hnwhite.com, is 36/37, so I only assume 37.

I just got a King 7K mouthpiece from same era, today- my lips died quick cause I've been playing (only for three days) with a Selmer ToneX 😜....
....it's OK cuz back in the day I played a MF Jet Tone 😊
JT after eight years tho

When I was a child, I only ever knew 7c. I didn't know they even made other mouth pieces, until I test drove the JT. I was 13. And wow. I was so happy then.

I have used Arbons and Rubanks coming (i love used books- notes in the margins). These are entry level compared to you guys but idc, cuz this is where im at. Chromatic scale. Scales. Theory again. I am going to do lessons for tune and remedial technique.
My sound is suprisingly good-ish- I have some vibrato, I also have no stamina.

I don't know how to tune the cornet correctly- I'm on with concert bFlat ( so C G C are correct ) but when I look at like F# it's flat. Technique definately. This is all with an app on my phone, so grain of salt.

Regarding embouchure, before braces my trumpet angled down- post braces, and a lifetime, the cornet points straight out.

Thank you everyone.
I really appriciate the info and the links above, and potential contacts. I'll probably never really be able to contribute, but I'll definately be able to ask some questions !!!

Best regards
Nick
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