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My Elusive Dream - the lip trill


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DNMH
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:58 am    Post subject: My Elusive Dream - the lip trill Reply with quote

For years I have tried to master a proper lip trill for Trad Jazz work. Bought the books, took the advice and did the practicing - all to no avail. Can do a fair shake but this plays havoc with the chops.

Some time ago I had a four-piece bridge placed in the top center. There was a time in the procedure that I could actually trill at will. I decided at that time to have the dentist shave a little off because my tone was lacking somewhat. I went over and he shaved and I came home and the tone was better, but the trills were gone.

Thought of a lot of things, like maybe my tongue is too large while trying scores of mouthpieces.

Ed Polcer and Wild Bill Davison did this so well. I once called Ed and asked him to teach me to do it and he said he didn't know how he did it, said he just thought it and it was there.

Hope this dream comes true for me someday.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say you-you-you-you-you-you-you with your tongue while you are playing. It also helps to lengthen the aperture tunnel of your embouchure to make sure the outer surface is relaxed.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to not be able to do lip trills for a long time, now I can do them no problem. Like other techniques, it's about being relaxed and efficient. Practice them softly at whatever speed you can go. Use the Arbans book exercises, I forget the page number, where you go through the partials and go through faster note subdivisions.. Keep at it, keep getting better and more efficient with your overall playing and it will unlock.
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earl D Irons
27 groups will get you there in no time
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DNMH
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="homebilly"]Earl D Irons
27 groups will get you there in no time[/quote

Thanks
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:16 am    Post subject: My elusive dream Reply with quote

Hello all,
I found most of my answers to lip trills with Colin's volume 2 and 3. I have the Irons book also, but it did seem to be incremental enough for my understanding and practice to gain the flexibility I needed.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Along with the advice already given, I suggest you make the same effect while whistling and observe what the tongue is doing while "warbling". Copy that while attempting to play the "lip trill" on the trumpet.

I can also attest to the fact that this will not work if your lips are pinned to the mouthpiece with excess pressure. If things are not allowed to move, neither will the pitch as it attempts to go back and forth between the 2 partials.

Good luck.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homebilly wrote:
Earl D Irons
27 groups will get you there in no time


These are definitely good exercises to do, but lip trills can stay pretty much impossible regardless of what exercises one practices if there's a basic fundamental unresolved issue.
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Say you-you-you-you-you-you-you with your tongue while you are playing. It also helps to lengthen the aperture tunnel of your embouchure to make sure the outer surface is relaxed.


When I do only this, without some action of the lips, jaw, and air, nothing at all happens. Also, when I do it by itself, the whistling/warbling motion suggested by Mr. Swartz has the same zero effect.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get an old red and white bucket mute, and practice them in the mute. Play mp.

Thank me later.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To do an actual fast 'trill', it is not really 'playing each note' - more like 'vibrating up & down'. The working embouchure setting is 'between' the notes, and then very minor adjustments for higher & lower.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Say you-you-you-you-you-you-you with your tongue while you are playing. It also helps to lengthen the aperture tunnel of your embouchure to make sure the outer surface is relaxed.


When I do only this, without some action of the lips, jaw, and air, nothing at all happens. Also, when I do it by itself, the whistling/warbling motion suggested by Mr. Swartz has the same zero effect.


Your oral cavity is probably too large. Notice the effect of "you." It compresses the oral cavity and pushes the lips outward, lengthening the aperture tunnel.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lip trill is a misnomer. Think of it as a tongue trill. Trilling with your lips seems impossible. Say oyoyoyoyoyoyoyoy. Practice the interval of a 2nd, say 1st space F to G using 1-3 valve combination. Start slowly and increase the speed eventually. When that becomes easy you can work on larger intervals.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Say you-you-you-you-you-you-you with your tongue while you are playing. It also helps to lengthen the aperture tunnel of your embouchure to make sure the outer surface is relaxed.


When I do only this, without some action of the lips, jaw, and air, nothing at all happens. Also, when I do it by itself, the whistling/warbling motion suggested by Mr. Swartz has the same zero effect.


If this is the case, i suspect you are not moving the wind column fast enough for normal tone production. Also, re-read my second paragraph. Many of us play with far more pressure and lip pinning than is necessary. It's not possible to make adjustments of the embouchure only to do "lip trills" even a minor third apart, let alone rips and "bugles" like appear in Colin Advanced Lip Flex (Complete) where we're zipping between low F# and F# above "high C"and filling in everything in-between.

At least take time to read the text in both Irons and Colin. Gordon as well. If you approach this fundamental solely from an embouchure path, it'll remain elusive, as will many other things that are demanded of an average business player today.

Sounds like a cliche', but perhaps some lessons? Again, good luck.
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Richard and Craig. I'll keep working on it.
-Craig
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Peter Bond
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are three different practical types of “lip trill,” one of these being the “shake” - yes, it’s not a real lip trill, but the terms have become interchangeable through (mis)use, so musical style will determine the most appropriate technique. For trad. jazz, I’d go with the shake (exaggerated hand vibrato ALA Louis).
There are, in my experience, two versions of the tongue trill; high velocity (big band), and low velocity (cornet solos, natural trumpet).
Shameless plug: My book The Singing Trumpet covers this in more detail than I can talk (type) about here.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very good advise here. Louie and other traditional jazz players used a shake. By actually shaking the horn the pressure changes the pitch. When the pinky ring is pulled in and out a fast the shake is born.

The rest are lip slurs. My favorite is the power shake. On a slow blues big band chart I would power shake say from a C to a G slow then speed up and reduce the interval to a second or third.

Then there is the lead shake. Adding a really fast lip trill (shake) where none is written. Like on Love for Sale after the drum break. It annoys others in the band because they do not know what to do and adds an air of independence to the lead player. The attention we seek!
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Bond offers some troubleshooting advice in his excellent "The Singing Trumpet."

1. Buzz the trill or flexibility pattern on your mouthpiece.
2. Repeat this, holding the mouthpiece about 1 cm inside the receiver.
3. Repeat this with the mouthpiece in the receiver, trying to mimic the feel of #2.

More details in his book, of course, which I highly recommend. Lots of great troubleshooting advice on a range of issues, and plenty of helpful exercises.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some are getting away from trad jazz and how the trill is used. Here's my current favorite for getting the sound right.


Link

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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When I do only this, without some action of the lips, jaw, and air, nothing at all happens. Also, when I do it by itself, the whistling/warbling motion suggested by Mr. Swartz has the same zero effect.


Correct. No matter what you do with the tongue or air, if the lips don't change the pitch will not change. It has NOTHING to do with the "speed" of the air.
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