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Bottoming out when using a horn with more resistance



 
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Insensato
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Joined: 15 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:05 am    Post subject: Bottoming out when using a horn with more resistance Reply with quote

I'm looking for some thoughtful feedback about the relationship between player-mouthpiece-horn. I've been in situations lately using a shallow and tight commercial mouthpiece, and I get two different experiences on two different horns.

Lately I've been using the Reeves 42ES/692S mouthpiece on both the Gen II Yamaha 8335LA (Bergeron) Bb, as well as the Gen II Yamaha 9335VS (Vizzutti) Bb. Both are great horns for commercial work, although the Vizzutti horn is heavier.

I occasionally will bottom out when using the Vizzutti horn, but never on the Bergeron horn. The playing characteristics of the Vizzutti are such that the horn has noticeably more resistance to the blow than the Bergeron. Could it be the case that because the Vizzutti horn has more resistance, I'm blowing harder and then bottoming out?

Anyone have experience with bottoming out on a super small mouthpiece on horns of varying resistance? I never have the issue of bottoming out on the 8335LA horn, which is much more free-blowing.

I am not looking for any feedback about changing mouthpieces.

Thanks!
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My own thoughts are yes, you're probably overblowing your chops. It's the course correction that is the tough call.

I too like a free blowing trumpet. I have never been able to adjust to a tight setup. It doesn't feel natural to me.

Also, I've had experiences where the mouthpiece (CG3) I played for a long while started to give me problems with my lips bottoming out. What changed? A few things. My tone has forever been thin and strident, so my work has always been to add richness to it. One of the main factors was to shift from a "smile" embouchure to a "compression" embouchure.

As I made that change, it follows that the center part of my lips got more loose and protruded into the mouthpiece cup more than before. That began to cause the bottoming, because the CG cup has sides that slope in just under the rim. The first step was to find a cup that was about the same depth, but had steeper sides. Fortunately, I had found Flip Oakes products by then and his O & L series mouthpieces had that feature. They worked for me.

Fast forward to today. I've joined a local college Community Concert Band and the sound concept I'm expected to match is much less brilliant than I have ever been required to produce, much less achieved, before. During the summer break, I've been working hard on that.

I have the whole gamut of FO mouthpieces in my rim size ranging from the L (lead) series to the TCC and Extreme, both of which have very deep cups and large throat bores. I chose to work on Arbans exercises using my TCC and Extreme, thinking that they would help me gain flexibility and tone quality. They certainly did those things. Now, as the fall session draws near, I've gone back to my 5C-O, which has a cup similar to a Bach 7C, Curry's "open" backbone and a standard #27 throat.

I've gained about a 4th interval of range over the summer with a good major third of reliable, usable range. I've gained accuracy and flexibility, as well. But, when I break out the O and L series mouthpieces, my lips bottom out easily on them in a short time.

So, I think there might be two reasons you are experiencing bottoming out. As you ventured, the added resistance of the one trumpet might have you over-blowing. Secondly, you might have loosened your embouchure, allowing the lips to fall into the mouthpiece cup too much.

What I found helpful, as I began to "downsize" back to the 5C-O, was to begin my day's playing with the smaller setup by playing soft long tones and two octave intervals. I start on G in the staff, then the ghost note an octave down. I secure the bottom note by going back and forth until I can shift between them easily with the best tone. I descend through all seven valve combinations. Then I begin on C# playing even tones like before, only I finish with the octave above. I repeat this cleanly four times each valve combination, ascending back to G in the staff. I currently keep going up to C above that, making sure to land every note accurately, cleanly and with my best tone quality.

This has solved the bottoming and taken away the double-buzz I was having trouble with earlier in the summer.
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lipshurt
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are using more mouthpiece pressure on the vizzutti

Probably because you are trying to get the same volume as the LA, or trying to pass through the same amount of air
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