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OldSchoolEuph
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 Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: |
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience?
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: |
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience? |
Do I understand it that you feel the audience is better served with a section of individuals struggling to find pitch centers, as opposed to a more cohesive and in tune section? And it has been my experience that bending to the will of an inconsistent player can be detrimental to your own playing. |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: |
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience? |
Do I understand it that you feel the audience is better served with a section of individuals struggling to find pitch centers, as opposed to a more cohesive and in tune section? And it has been my experience that bending to the will of an inconsistent player can be detrimental to your own playing. |
I guess it boils down to
A. Having a section where the players in the section play in tune with each other but not the complete ensemble or
B. The section sometimes fights with each other but is in tune with the ensemble occasionally.
I have sung in choirs where I was put next to the people who struggled to stay on pitch to provide them with a example to match. I guess that is similar to what adagiotrumpet is providing.
One of those persons who was always slightly off pitch also was slightly ahead of the beat. It made it very difficult for me to avoid coming in early and to avoid matching his pitch.  |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: |
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience? |
Do I understand it that you feel the audience is better served with a section of individuals struggling to find pitch centers, as opposed to a more cohesive and in tune section? And it has been my experience that bending to the will of an inconsistent player can be detrimental to your own playing. |
Just the opposite. In the trio, quartet, quintet environment, when the strong players match the week, the audience experiences a better performance than if one player takes the "I am right" attitude and refuses to yield for the sake of a cohesive sound.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: |
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience? |
Do I understand it that you feel the audience is better served with a section of individuals struggling to find pitch centers, as opposed to a more cohesive and in tune section? And it has been my experience that bending to the will of an inconsistent player can be detrimental to your own playing. |
Just the opposite. In the trio, quartet, quintet environment, when the strong players match the week, the audience experiences a better performance than if one player takes the "I am right" attitude and refuses to yield for the sake of a cohesive sound. |
Gee, and all this time I always thought in tune was in tune. It's not about being right, it's about being consistent. Trying to match the inconsistencies of a weak (not week) player is a recipe for disaster.
"That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience?" It seems to me that what's nice for me and the section (your words) should also be nice for the audience. How can a group with varying pitch centers trying to find common ground be a better experience for the audience? |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: |
As far as the author needing a loose centering horn "to match with others who may not be particularly attentive to a consistent pitch center", my approach would be the opposite. I don't always get to play with "A list players" and rather than alter my playing to match any player's inconsistencies, I try to play as consistently as possible and allow some of the less experienced players I play with try to match me. It's certainly less taxing for me, in the long run I think better for the less experienced player, and certainly better for the section. |
That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience? |
Do I understand it that you feel the audience is better served with a section of individuals struggling to find pitch centers, as opposed to a more cohesive and in tune section? And it has been my experience that bending to the will of an inconsistent player can be detrimental to your own playing. |
Just the opposite. In the trio, quartet, quintet environment, when the strong players match the week, the audience experiences a better performance than if one player takes the "I am right" attitude and refuses to yield for the sake of a cohesive sound. |
Gee, and all this time I always thought in tune was in tune. It's not about being right, it's about being consistent. Trying to match the inconsistencies of a weak (not week) player is a recipe for disaster.
"That's nice for the section, and for you - but what about the audience?" It seems to me that what's nice for me and the section (your words) should also be nice for the audience. How can a group with varying pitch centers trying to find common ground be a better experience for the audience? |
Just like velocity, intonation is relative to the perspective of the observer. The center may drift with following a weak player, but if everyone matches, the audience perspective (unless they have perfect pitch) is "in tune".
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Jon Arnold"] | kehaulani wrote: | Thanks, Pat. I'll be looking for it.
"I was looking for something more like a Benge and ideally like a Shew, but with the 190-37 sound. The Bach was neither.
When you find a horn that is like this, please let me know. |
Try Getzen Custom 3001 Artist https://www.getzen.com/trumpets/custom-series/3001-artist-model/
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | Just like velocity, intonation is relative to the perspective of the observer. The center may drift with following a weak player, but if everyone matches, the audience perspective (unless they have perfect pitch) is "in tune". |
I cannot imagine how a quintet could even come close to matching a player who is inconsistent in playing in tune. Every attack on every note would either have to be delayed to figure out what pitch the inconsistent player is playing on this note or have a moment of out of tune on every note before four players adjust to the different pitch.
But the real solution is to make sure to avoid gigs with someone like this. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: |
I cannot imagine how a quintet could even come close to matching a player who is inconsistent in playing in tune. |
It's rough - the ugly situation is when there's 2....
You play with someone for a while and you develop a sense for what is coming.
| LittleRusty wrote: | | But the real solution is to make sure to avoid gigs with someone like this. |
Sometimes, especially in the world of the recreational player, that's easier said than done.
and again, if no one is willing to play, its the audience that suffers the loss - perhaps of less than perfect music, but you would be surprised how much even imperfect can mean to people.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ron,
I get that we all have warts in our performance personas. And I have worked with some really challenging performers in my life. Like sitting next to the literally tone deaf singer, not the same as the pitch challenged one I mentioned earlier, in a church choir who was important to the church and thus no one would tell him.
I also had a band director in college whose philosophy was that the music he selected for the ensemble should be chosen based on the lowest skill level player. I was bored out of my skull and switched to choral the next year as a result.
I also have participated in a performance of Brahms Requiem where our sixty voice church choir joined a sixty voice seminary choir plus orchestra. In the first rehearsal one of the tenors in the seminary choir remarked to a fellow “he knows the parts and can sing them” referring to me. They all moved so they could sit nearby and build off my performance.
This all informs my personal opinion on who leads and who follows in a group where some are not at the same performance level. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| BudBix wrote: | | I suppose they don't owe little old me an answer but I'm a serious buyer if the new models live up to the hype in this thread but I still think all bets are off because the longer it takes the more chances there are for management to screw it up. |
I missed this when you first posted it.
I think the advice of another poster to give Bach "some slack" is worth listening to. If major change is coming, that change should be carefully considered, and then reconsidered, until all the kinks are worked out. That should take time.
I certainly sympathize with your frustration at the terrible communication skills of the new Bach team (after all, I was guilty of being the first to post about that frustration here), but what we should care about more is their product development skill. If these new horns provide all that has been suggested by their proxies, and they don't try to be Yamaha but instead truly embrace the heritage of the name, then I don't think we will care all that much any more that they suck at customer relations right now.
At least their priorities are where they should be during such major product development. Once it is finished, then we can (and will) beat up on them more about the communication again.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: |
I cannot imagine how a quintet could even come close to matching a player who is inconsistent in playing in tune. |
It's rough - the ugly situation is when there's 2....
You play with someone for a while and you develop a sense for what is coming.
| LittleRusty wrote: | | But the real solution is to make sure to avoid gigs with someone like this. |
Sometimes, especially in the world of the recreational player, that's easier said than done.
and again, if no one is willing to play, its the audience that suffers the loss - perhaps of less than perfect music, but you would be surprised how much even imperfect can mean to people. |
"You play with someone for a while and you develop a sense for what is coming". As far as style, phrasing, etc., this is true assuming the person you are following is reasonably consistent. The very definition of inconsistent is, and I shouldn't even have to say this, just the opposite. So unless you are musically clairvoyant, how can you possibly know what the inconsistent player will do next? And even if somehow you did know, why would you want to sacrifice your own playing by trying to play to the least common denominator? And even if you were willing to do this, why would you want to sacrifice your own playing abilities by intentionally playing inconsistently? |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | And even if somehow you did know, why would you want to sacrifice your own playing by trying to play to the least common denominator? And even if you were willing to do this, why would you want to sacrifice your own playing abilities by intentionally playing inconsistently? |
To optimize the experience for the audience, and for the others in the small ensemble.
I don't play to satisfy my ego (did enough of that when I was young) - though I certainly do enjoy it. My goal is always the experience realized by those around me.
In a perfect world, I would love it if everyone played flawlessly. We don't live in a perfect world.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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BudBix
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Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Jon Kaplan wrote: | | BudBix wrote: | | I sent a Facebook message to Bach Brass asking when the horns would be for sale and haven’t gotten a response. I suspect it ain’t gonna happen. |
I know these horns are highly anticipated, and I can't wait to see them myself - but please cut Bach some slack, they don't necessarily need to reveal product timelines to customers just because someone asked. They will come when as soon as the company is ready to release them. 🤓🎺 |
The cat's out of the bag so they may as well keep the public informed. (Yamaha has a better marketing team IMHO) The Pandemic used up all my slack. I am out of slack to cut  |
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JoseLindE4
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| It's a bit of a side conversation from the point of the thread, but I have an early 60s Mount Vernon Bach with the shorter leadpipe. I have no problems playing it in tune and the sound is to die for. I'm sure the design has its detractors for a reason, but at least for me and my horn, there are no problems. |
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | And even if somehow you did know, why would you want to sacrifice your own playing by trying to play to the least common denominator? And even if you were willing to do this, why would you want to sacrifice your own playing abilities by intentionally playing inconsistently? |
To optimize the experience for the audience, and for the others in the small ensemble.
I don't play to satisfy my ego (did enough of that when I was young) - though I certainly do enjoy it. My goal is always the experience realized by those around me.
In a perfect world, I would love it if everyone played flawlessly. We don't live in a perfect world. |
It's not about ego. Nobody is suggesting that everyone has to play flawlessly and I agree that we don't live in a perfect world. However, realistically, what do you think the audience is going to appreciate more, an ensemble that strives to produce as close to a consistent pitch center as possible, or a group playing loose centering horns bobbing for apples (dueling pitch centers)? |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | what do you think the audience is going to appreciate more, an ensemble that strives to produce as close to a consistent pitch center as possible, or a group playing loose centering horns bobbing for apples (dueling pitch centers)? |
The equipment should not be driving the result, only aiding the player.
The first is optimal - and best achieved when the strong match to the weak preventing dissonance.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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blownchops
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Joined: 15 Apr 2020
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The first is optimal - and best achieved when the strong match to the weak preventing dissonance. |
This whole tangent on tuning and matching is quite bizarre to me. I run a pretty solid high school band program, three concert bands, ranging from playing pretty easy tunes to playing really difficult and challenging repertoire.
Never once have I told a student "Oh yeah, listen to the last chair player and match that tone and sound." for any instrument.
I regularly tell students to listen up and match tone and tuning with the principal chair players. Even my lowest preforming students can generally do this pretty well once taught to.
As to the new Bach topic, I hope they address their current issues in silver plating. I see so many modern bachs with excessive silver wear, they look worse than well loved horns from the 70's and 80's. I have vintage conns from the 30s that have less sliver plate wear than some of my student's few year old strads.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| blownchops wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
The first is optimal - and best achieved when the strong match to the weak preventing dissonance. |
This whole tangent on tuning and matching is quite bizarre to me. I run a pretty solid high school band program, three concert bands, ranging from playing pretty easy tunes to playing really difficult and challenging repertoire.
Never once have I told a student "Oh yeah, listen to the last chair player and match that tone and sound." for any instrument.
I regularly tell students to listen up and match tone and tuning with the principal chair players. Even my lowest preforming students can generally do this pretty well once taught to.
As to the new Bach topic, I hope they address their current issues in silver plating. I see so many modern bachs with excessive silver wear, they look worse than well loved horns from the 70's and 80's. I have vintage conns from the 30s that have less sliver plate wear than some of my student's few year old strads. |
I'm not talking about a 70 piece band.
The plating is Anderson Silver Plating across the street from the Bach plant - same as it was in the 80s.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | adagiotrumpet wrote: | | what do you think the audience is going to appreciate more, an ensemble that strives to produce as close to a consistent pitch center as possible, or a group playing loose centering horns bobbing for apples (dueling pitch centers)? |
The equipment should not be driving the result, only aiding the player.
The first is optimal - and best achieved when the strong match to the weak preventing dissonance. |
I think a false dichotomy is being made here. I think it's incumbent on better players to establish both good pitch and good timing, especially when working up music with developing players. Come performance time I'd expect those same better players to adjust as needed so the group sounds their best.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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