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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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 Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | I think a false dichotomy is being made here. I think it's incumbent on better players to establish both good pitch and good timing, especially when working up music with developing players. Come performance time I'd expect those same better players to adjust as needed so the group sounds their best. |
Well said.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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blownchops
Regular Member
Joined: 15 Apr 2020
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
I'm not talking about a 70 piece band.
The plating is Anderson Silver Plating across the street from the Bach plant - same as it was in the 80s. |
Neither am I. I have my kids play in combos, trios, quintets, quartets, ect. They blend up. Works great for me. Not sure it matters though, a balanced, tuned and blended sound is a balanced, tuned and blended sound regardless of ensemble.
When kids are taught to constantly listen and adjust, they all do. From my All star to my weakest performer.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is something squirrely going on with the Bach silverplating. I has been inconsistent through time and I see way, way, WAY too many modern bachs with way too much plate loss for what they should have. 7XX,XXX horns with substantial plate wear on a consistent basis to me demonstrates a clear issues somewhere in the manufacturing process.
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Bach 37 |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| blownchops wrote: | | There is no doubt in my mind that there is something squirrely going on with the Bach silverplating. I has been inconsistent through time and I see way, way, WAY too many modern bachs with way too much plate loss for what they should have. 7XX,XXX horns with substantial plate wear on a consistent basis to me demonstrates a clear issues somewhere in the manufacturing process. |
I bend, I adjust - its nice to have a Bach that helps me - but enough of that.
This plating issue is interesting, because I have been hearing about such issues specifically in relation to these "Open Box" Bachs from Quinn the Eskimo. The price is pretty low for a "virtually new" horn, so I wonder if there is something to it. Do you know if many of those you have seen this issue with are "Open Box"?
There are admittedly several things that could have changed over time. For instance, the EPA has had a significant effect on the plating industry, as has OSHA since the 70s. As Bach mouthpieces would go through all of the same processing, have you seen any corresponding plating loss with those?
Its also possible that turnover in the labor force could lead to lack of proper prep at Anderson I suppose - though I would have expected to hear about that from repair techs sending horns there too.
So, if indeed something is up, those are just three possibilities. It would be interesting to see more data. After all, if there is an issue, then it could negatively impact the new Bachs as well - which I would think Bach leadership would want to know about.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Adam West
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 416
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| So if I may summarize the above.... there is a new Bach coming. It'll be a trumpet and make toot toot sounds. |
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Subtropical and Subpar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 624
Location: Here and there
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Adam West wrote: | | So if I may summarize the above.... there is a new Bach coming. It'll be a trumpet and make toot toot sounds. |
Wait, is this a thread about new Bachs?  
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12656
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | I think a false dichotomy is being made here. I think it's incumbent on better players to establish both good pitch and good timing, especially when working up music with developing players. Come performance time I'd expect those same better players to adjust as needed so the group sounds their best. |
Well this makes a lot of sense. Practice and become used to the good players setting the standards and then completely turn it upside down in performance.
I’m sorry, I have been the poorer player in some situations and I never ever expect the professionals to follow my pitch, timing or tempo. |
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quinntheeskimo
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | blownchops wrote: | | There is no doubt in my mind that there is something squirrely going on with the Bach silverplating. I has been inconsistent through time and I see way, way, WAY too many modern bachs with way too much plate loss for what they should have. 7XX,XXX horns with substantial plate wear on a consistent basis to me demonstrates a clear issues somewhere in the manufacturing process. |
I bend, I adjust - its nice to have a Bach that helps me - but enough of that.
This plating issue is interesting, because I have been hearing about such issues specifically in relation to these "Open Box" Bachs from Quinn the Eskimo. The price is pretty low for a "virtually new" horn, so I wonder if there is something to it. Do you know if many of those you have seen this issue with are "Open Box"?
There are admittedly several things that could have changed over time. For instance, the EPA has had a significant effect on the plating industry, as has OSHA since the 70s. As Bach mouthpieces would go through all of the same processing, have you seen any corresponding plating loss with those?
Its also possible that turnover in the labor force could lead to lack of proper prep at Anderson I suppose - though I would have expected to hear about that from repair techs sending horns there too.
So, if indeed something is up, those are just three possibilities. It would be interesting to see more data. After all, if there is an issue, then it could negatively impact the new Bachs as well - which I would think Bach leadership would want to know about. |
We haven't heard of any plating issues on our Open Box instruments that we sell, and if people are noticing these issues we'd like to hear from them about it.
Our Open Box instruments are guaranteed to play like new and look like new unless a specific cosmetic detail is noted in the description. If you are unhappy for any reason, just send it back, no questions asked. |
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quinntheeskimo
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Oh, also, it's The Mighty Quinn Brass and Winds now. The 'E' word was a bit problematic. www.brassandwinds.com. |
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TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2412
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| quinntheeskimo wrote: | We haven't heard of any plating issues on our Open Box instruments that we sell, and if people are noticing these issues we'd like to hear from them about it.
Our Open Box instruments are guaranteed to play like new and look like new unless a specific cosmetic detail is noted in the description. If you are unhappy for any reason, just send it back, no questions asked. |
Thanks for the clarification. I've purchased 2 open-box horns from Quinn, one Bach. No problems whatsoever. Thanks Quinn.
Mike
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Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Dayton
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 2025
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We haven't heard of any plating issues on our Open Box instruments that we sell, and if people are noticing these issues we'd like to hear from them about it.
Our Open Box instruments are guaranteed to play like new and look like new unless a specific cosmetic detail is noted in the description. If you are unhappy for any reason, just send it back, no questions aske |
I've also purchased "open box" Bachs from Quinn/Brass and Winds and not had any problems. |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| quinntheeskimo wrote: | | We haven't heard of any plating issues on our Open Box instruments that we sell, and if people are noticing these issues we'd like to hear from them about it. |
The only thing that has stopped me from buying one or more “open box” Bachs from Quinn has been what I have read here on TH. For instance, the same language that is on the listings I would be interested in, “We guarantee these instruments to play like new and look great as pictured.” described a horn also proclaimed “Excellent” that had a completely trashed clear coat, and was the subject of a thread here that began
| Irving wrote: | I was browsing Quinntheeskimos open box horns for sale on ebay, and ran across this horn: https://www.ebay.com/itm/363774144609?epid=24031283479
I thought to myself, "why did Bach let this horn out of the factory?". Bach has been making a great effort to improve it's tarnished image, and yet, when a horn comes out of the factory with defects, it shouldn't be sold, even at a discount. Seeing these horns for sale really makes me wonder why Bach bothers to risk their reputation that they are trying to improve. Nothing against the seller, as he is very reputable. |
I seriously want to buy these horns I am seeing, but when I read statements like that, and this reply
| Notlem wrote: | They never state it is new, just that they have bought a rash of horns that fit a open box condition later in the general ad part. I would assume this is used. It states excellent condition, not new.
…
one of the dealers I dealt with listed horns as demo condition. Upon calling them, they are actually Bach B-stock. I believe bach grades their B-stock and the dealer I called was only buying ones with minor finish issues. |
I am VERY reluctant to spend that kind of money, albeit a significant discount, on a horn with only 30 day, and not 100%, warranty if I do not know what issues it has - only that it does.
I guess I would be much more eager to buy a B-stock horn if the seller simply stated up-front what was the reason for it failing QC.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Miketpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 563
Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | quinntheeskimo wrote: | | We haven't heard of any plating issues on our Open Box instruments that we sell, and if people are noticing these issues we'd like to hear from them about it. |
The only thing that has stopped me from buying one or more “open box” Bachs from Quinn has been what I have read here on TH. For instance, the same language that is on the listings I would be interested in, “We guarantee these instruments to play like new and look great as pictured.” described a horn also proclaimed “Excellent” that had a completely trashed clear coat, and was the subject of a thread here that began
| Irving wrote: | I was browsing Quinntheeskimos open box horns for sale on ebay, and ran across this horn: https://www.ebay.com/itm/363774144609?epid=24031283479
I thought to myself, "why did Bach let this horn out of the factory?". Bach has been making a great effort to improve it's tarnished image, and yet, when a horn comes out of the factory with defects, it shouldn't be sold, even at a discount. Seeing these horns for sale really makes me wonder why Bach bothers to risk their reputation that they are trying to improve. Nothing against the seller, as he is very reputable. |
I seriously want to buy these horns I am seeing, but when I read statements like that, and this reply
| Notlem wrote: | They never state it is new, just that they have bought a rash of horns that fit a open box condition later in the general ad part. I would assume this is used. It states excellent condition, not new.
…
one of the dealers I dealt with listed horns as demo condition. Upon calling them, they are actually Bach B-stock. I believe bach grades their B-stock and the dealer I called was only buying ones with minor finish issues. |
I am VERY reluctant to spend that kind of money, albeit a significant discount, on a horn with only 30 day, and not 100%, warranty if I do not know what issues it has - only that it does.
I guess I would be much more eager to buy a B-stock horn if the seller simply stated up-front what was the reason for it failing QC. |
It's fair to say that 9 times out of 10 it's purely cosmetic. Maybe a slight scratch here or there.
Mike |
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JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve never bought the almost new Bachs from Quinn, but I’ve bought several horns from them, including one that turned out to have a problem. The problem was something that would have been reasonably missed in a normal playing test.
They took the horn back, resolved the issue, and returned it to me within a reasonable amount of time, all on their own dime. You can learn a lot about a business when things go wrong and they were more than fair with me and I ended up with a great horn and a great deal. If you want to buy the open box Bach, you should. |
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quinntheeskimo
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | quinntheeskimo wrote: | | We haven't heard of any plating issues on our Open Box instruments that we sell, and if people are noticing these issues we'd like to hear from them about it. |
The only thing that has stopped me from buying one or more “open box” Bachs from Quinn has been what I have read here on TH. For instance, the same language that is on the listings I would be interested in, “We guarantee these instruments to play like new and look great as pictured.” described a horn also proclaimed “Excellent” that had a completely trashed clear coat, and was the subject of a thread here that began
| Irving wrote: | I was browsing Quinntheeskimos open box horns for sale on ebay, and ran across this horn: https://www.ebay.com/itm/363774144609?epid=24031283479
I thought to myself, "why did Bach let this horn out of the factory?". Bach has been making a great effort to improve it's tarnished image, and yet, when a horn comes out of the factory with defects, it shouldn't be sold, even at a discount. Seeing these horns for sale really makes me wonder why Bach bothers to risk their reputation that they are trying to improve. Nothing against the seller, as he is very reputable. |
I seriously want to buy these horns I am seeing, but when I read statements like that, and this reply
| Notlem wrote: | They never state it is new, just that they have bought a rash of horns that fit a open box condition later in the general ad part. I would assume this is used. It states excellent condition, not new.
…
one of the dealers I dealt with listed horns as demo condition. Upon calling them, they are actually Bach B-stock. I believe bach grades their B-stock and the dealer I called was only buying ones with minor finish issues. |
I am VERY reluctant to spend that kind of money, albeit a significant discount, on a horn with only 30 day, and not 100%, warranty if I do not know what issues it has - only that it does.
I guess I would be much more eager to buy a B-stock horn if the seller simply stated up-front what was the reason for it failing QC. |
Thanks for your feedback-you're right, that one particular horn was a severe outlier, and while it came in a batch of those open box instruments, we never should have put it into our open box program. It WAS a great player but the finish was terrible, and if we had to do it over again we would have sold it as one of our regular used instruments. We live and learn.
Please note, though, that in addition to the unconditional 30 day return policy, we offer a shop warranty on the open box instruments that matches the manufacturer's warranty, it us just serviced through our shop. So if there is a manufacturing defect that rears its ugly head during hte warranty period, we will take care of it at no charge, including shipping to and from your location. Thanks! |
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 654
Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | | Adam West wrote: | | So if I may summarize the above.... there is a new Bach coming. It'll be a trumpet and make toot toot sounds. |
Wait, is this a thread about new Bachs? |
Not any more I guess 
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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quinntheeskimo
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
I guess I would be much more eager to buy a B-stock horn if the seller simply stated up-front what was the reason for it failing QC. |
It is also important to note that while these horns ARE all technically B-stock, that doesn't mean that they failed QC. There are a lot of reasons why a horn goes into B-stock, some of which I am privy to but cannot disclose as it is proprietary information, but every single one of these instruments is examined by our technical staff and played by shop pro Amanda Marquis before it is ever listed. If we see ANYTHING wrong with it we will point it out in the listing. The God's honest truth is, 95%+ of these instruments are completely indistinguishable from new. |
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quinntheeskimo
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Oct 2002
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Manuel de los Campos wrote: | | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | | Adam West wrote: | | So if I may summarize the above.... there is a new Bach coming. It'll be a trumpet and make toot toot sounds. |
Wait, is this a thread about new Bachs? |
Not any more I guess |
We have all the new Bach models on pre-order and will be getting them as soon as they are released  |
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chef8489
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 857
Location: Johnson City Tn
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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I need a 190s72 with a trigger on ist slude but bach isn't cooperating.
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Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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picctpt33
Regular Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2019
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I’ve purchased some on Quinn’s open box Bachs and they play as inconsistently as brand new Bachs |
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BudBix
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 519
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Still want to try those new Bachs. They should "toot toot" easier and with a better sound. |
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