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roll-in question



 
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tclement
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Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 201
Location: Austin, Tx

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm progressing on my roll-in ability. I can regularly produce a good squeak, however the squeak if off-centered. It typically comes from the right side of my mouth (just right of center). If I put my finger on my lips where the squeak is, I can make it come out of the other side (just left of center).

I've seen posts regarding off-centered squeaks and have read this ok in the BE book.

Do I need to be working the buzz toward the center ? If so, how should I work on it ?

thanks,
Tim

[ This Message was edited by: tclement on 2004-01-15 18:16 ]

[ This Message was edited by: tclement on 2004-01-15 18:17 ]
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Larrios
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
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Location: Serooskerke (Walcheren), The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tim,

<<<I've seen posts regarding off-centered squeaks and have read this ok in the BE book.>>>

You already know the answer to your question. Opinions seems to be slightly different on this issue, as you might have discovered reading around on the forum. In my opinion, for what it's worth, I wouldn't be so much concerned about where the squeak is. I've tried to move mine more towards the center many times, but just as many times I got stuck. I'm doing alright with my squeak not in the center. (I played roll in 1-3 yesterday.) Also, I think when you are going to do your roll in 1, this problem will tend to solve itself. Don't be afraid for experimentation either. You are out of your normal playing range. There is lots to learn in that area for everyone. And by the way, the whole importance of 'the center' is kind of too big anyway, I think. How many players do you know who play exactly in the center? If I make my lips very wet and play a G in the staff, medium volume, starting in the center of my lips, I can move my mouthpiece to one corner and back to the other corner and end in the center again, while sustaining the same note with reasonable sound in each position. It's not really worth a lot to be able to do that, but it does indicate that it's possible to get a good sound out of almost any position, just as it's possible to sound well with a flat chin. It's just your job to find your sweetspot. The one where things just go easier, less effort, more efficiency. The chance that it's slightly off center is probably bigger than being exactly in the center. Just experiment and keep in mind that you are not messing with your normal playing. You are doing excersises. Go for it!

Ko
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_dcstep
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 6324
Location: Denver

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just keep doing the squeek or hiss and the roll-in excercises. It may take weeks to get it coordinated, but it'll come as you work at it. The key is to keep your rolled in lip clamp posture and feel in you lips as you play. For experienced players this can be really tough. I've had trouble with this; getting it some days and failing on others. I'm now about six weeks into BE and the roll in is just starting to get some stability. Even so, I have to try several times to get my initial connection without collapsing the roll in. Despite these troubles, when I get it right, the set note ends up being an E above high C (I've been playing 46-years, including lead, so my lips are pretty strong ex-BE). Being impatient, I'll do roll in #1 and #2 and then start messing with the ascending notes. Last night I was up to double C and hanging around in the E thru G range for a good long while before my lips got tired. These glimpses of the potential really excite me about BE.

Follow the book and experiment to resolve your "problems." Be sure to use the CD to hear how things should sound.

Dave
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trUMBet67
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Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 220
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found very useful to do lip clamp with a pencil, don't know if it can be considered a pencil exercise. I didn't understand too well how to do lip clamp and this was my trick. This helps to center the hiss or make a "center feeling".
Any opinion about this?

Umberto
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_dcstep
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: Denver

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I haven't tried the lip-clamp and the pencil excercise together, but I have tried them apart and they seem totally different to me. When you do the lip-clamp-squeak does it come out the center? Are your really doing a real lip clamp (with your face scrunched up like the pictures in the book?

Pre-BE, I used to do the pencil excercise then free buzz, which is entirely different from the lip-clamp-squeak and will not help you achieve the goals of BE, IMHO. The lcs goes so much farther and feels so foriegn in the beginning (for experienced players, at least) that I think it's best to stay away from reminders of the past.

Dave
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Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest
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tclement
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Joined: 25 Nov 2003
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Location: Austin, Tx

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.

Since my rolled-in squeak is off-centered, should I place the mouthpiece off-center as well ? Does the mouthpiece rim provide the support to move the squeak to the center ?

Tim
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_dcstep
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Experiment and figure out for yourself. We don't know. It'll all depend on you. There's no one way.

Dave
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Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest
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trUMBet67
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Joined: 08 Sep 2003
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Location: Italia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcstep wrote:

<<Well, I haven't tried the lip-clamp and the pencil excercise together, but I have tried them apart and they seem totally different to me. When you do the lip-clamp-squeak does it come out the center? Are your really doing a real lip clamp (with your face scrunched up like the pictures in the book?

Pre-BE, I used to do the pencil excercise then free buzz, which is entirely different from the lip-clamp-squeak and will not help you achieve the goals of BE>>

I did too much analysis, lip clamp squeak didn't come out, and lip clamp and roll in was totally strange... The thing was growing slowly, sometimes a squeak did came out, diffused thru lips. But i have strong lips, i think, it isn't a chop problem, but a coordination/concentration problem.
The pencil help me to relax all that can be relaxed out of the center, doing simply lip clamp with the pencil... I don't know any specific pencil exercise.
Now i can do lip clamp and squeak, centered, and the trumpet sings pretty well, much better than before. Maybe tomorrow i need pencil no more, but now it works for me. Jeff wrote his bag of tricks on the book, but sooner or later everyone discover his own, too. (I think...)

Well, this is a wonderful place, i thank you all very much, here i'm learning lots of useful things and here i read from Jeff and purchased his book. Now, maybe slowly but steadily, i'm going to think less to mechanics and more to music!

Umberto
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oj
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Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 1699
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post Umberto!

Today, a guy here in Norway came to see me. He had just started with B.E. He had come back from a layoff of some years and he wanted (as many comebackers) to get better than before, understand more of the basic mechanics etc., etc.

We went through all the basics in B.E and here are some of my observations:

* He was great on the double pedals. Very, raspy, "lawn mover" pedals! WOW!
He is now ready for Roll-Out #3.

* Roll-In was not so good.
He rolled in with a very big smile, and the squeeks was not very good. We worked on it a bit. I showed him how to do it without streching the lips by pulling the corners into a big smile. ...a bit better, but still he had not really "found it".

A problem with comebackers and advanced players (I've experienced it myself) are that they rush ahead. They play G, F# and F, then on to R.O # 2, and then #3. But the exercise is not really "paying back". No, easy strong sound, just the more regular notes from the old days. This is a waste of time. Better to BE patient! Work till you find the hiss/squeek and from that can put the mpc. ligthly on the lips, and WHAM! a strong sound jumps out!

It is better to imagine that you never played this G before. You are now a total beginner and want to find out how to play this note. If you do that, you will get more from the CD, where a 13 year old with braces do it. Perhaps you could even imagine that you had braces when doing this?

Gunnar, if you see this. Thanks for a great time together, this Saturday afternoon!
BE patient with roll-ins, but go ahead with the rest!
You really impressed me with your development after such a short time!

Ole
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