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180-37 vs 8335 vs Challenger II


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Heinz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:21 am    Post subject: 180-37 vs 8335 vs Challenger II Reply with quote

Sometime I like to have a Bach 180-37. My former teacher played a tune on my 5335 and then on her 37. Although both trumpets sounded good, the 37 had that nice open and brilliant sound. The 5335 sounded more compact, a bit warmer but also a bit muffled in close comparison with the 37. Don't get me wrong, I really like my 5335 and it are details a random listener wouldn't notice. But hey, there is a reason for a 2k price difference...

There are trumpets like the Yam 8335 and B&S Challenger II that look almost like the 37. And are comparable with the 37 in specs. Especially the 8335 caught my eye because I like how Yamaha's play and they are (used) cheaper to find.

Would a 8335 or Challenger II be a upgrade soundwise in comparison with my 5335? Or is a Bach just in a leage of its own?
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: 180-37 vs 8335 vs Challenger II Reply with quote

Heinz wrote:


Would a 8335 or Challenger II be a upgrade soundwise in comparison with my 5335? Or is a Bach just in a leage of its own?


Yes, it will be an upgrade although Bach is -indeed- a leage of its own.
B&S Challengers are not very common in The Netherlands, I posessed once a B&S Challenger I 3137, The 'perfect' Bach Stradivarius copy, I say 'perfect' since just after the honymoon period I was getting more and more disappointed; not in the instrument itself, a decent build quality but more soundwise: way less overtones compared to my Bach 180/37 and just because of that the B&S I found somewhat stuffy. After all I am always searching for a to me perfect sounding trumpet so I don't have to work on that part of mastering the trumpet.
By accident a Challenger II 31372 crossed my path: I was sideman in a chamber orchestra to play Haydn nr. 104 and the principal player showed up with this very trumpet and ofcourse we exchanged trumpets, that is what we do don't we?
This Challenger is very differend than my late 3137 Challenger I, the Challenger II is one of the easiest playing trumpets I ever tried. I was really impressed.
The Yamaha 8335 to me is unknown but if that trumpet has a goldbrass bell as has your 5335 I wouldn't bother buying one; trumpets with goldbrass bells sound nice but lack brilliance and projection. Better go for a trumpet with a yellow brass bell
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invisiblehand
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm relatively new to pro horns ... I'm slowly going around DC trying them out ... but my experience lately is that there is no replacement for trying out a horn.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nearly every (non-niche) trumpet maker offers "their" version of a Bach 18037. While I prefer the Bach, alternatives such as the Yamaha 8335/8335II and the Shires Q10, along with their more expensive counterparts -- Yamaha 9335NYII/III and the Shires A/AF/AZ -- are also fine horns that might match with some players better than the Bach does. The Getzen 3050 is another solid option.

No way to know which will be a better match, or how big an improvement any of them would be for you over your current horn, without trying them. Good luck!
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A while back I did test play a number of 37 Bachs vs. 37 Challengers, assuming Challenger II from the price tag. Both types were fine horns but I found the Bachs were a bit more punchy while the Challengers were a little „nicer“ or „restrained“ - hard to put words on it. Construction wise they were all fine, but I usually don’t care that much about the finer details of the lacquer and the soldering etc., so I didn’t really check.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread poses an always fascinating question, which model?

Several have said close to what I’m going to say, but I’ll dig just a bit deeper.

I’ve had several nice 18037’s by Bach, Yamaha’s 8335’s, and B&S’ Challengers, a shockingly nice Shire’s Q, and another shocker - a truly marvelous sounding Holton T101 (every inch a pro horn and Strad clone); they all produce an enviable, likable product. But when it comes to a pro horn there’s nothing better than personally play-testing a horn.

Why? Two reasons: Because the ‘certain sound’ that you want may differ drastically from what other players are hoping for. And your mouthpiece preference may differ significantly from others as well. And when you get into the pro lines that you mention, there can bevalmost as much difference between individual trumpets as there are between makes. Frankly, for years I’ve bought and sold horns online, played and enjoyed them for weeks, months, and years then cheerfully sold them. I’ve not made mountains of money, but the journey has been a very fun and thoroughly enjoyable ride. At the end, I generally prefer Bach horns, but I must say any pro horn can be a very pleasant surprise.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reactions! It's my intention to test them personally. But from paper:

- YTR8335: the one I saw has a goldbrass bell. I think it will sound like my 5335, so no big upgrade I think. And I will keep the 5335 anyway.
- Shires Q10: in Holland Shires is not on the market unfortunately, same goes for high end Getzen.
- Challenger II: I'm curious about this trumpet, maybe it is a good fit. No real Bach, but also a grand cheaper.
- 180-37: I don't know why, but it seems the most desirable for me. Also by far the most expensive of the lot. Bach is really populair in Holland, a reasonable priced 2nd hand can be sold in days. So its hard to get a good deal.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heinz, you won't go wrong getting the Bach. If you get a used one you can always sell it easily. You really need to live with the horn for a while to see if you get on well with it. In the meantime you will probably run across a Challenger, and can see how it compares to the Bach, when you are well acustomed to the Bach. If you prefer the Challenger, then you can sell the Bach.
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw this used 37 at Adams:
https://www.adams-music.com/trompet/tweedehands-trompet/gebruikte_bes_trompet_vincent_bach_ml37s_i5002243

Price is a bit steep for a clearly used 37?

Maybe it will polish up fine. And I don't like the movable triggerring. But I think they will make it fixed again if I ask.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: 180-37 vs 8335 vs Challenger II Reply with quote

Heinz wrote:
Sometime I like to have a Bach 180-37. My former teacher played a tune on my 5335 and then on her 37. Although both trumpets sounded good, the 37 had that nice open and brilliant sound. The 5335 sounded more compact, a bit warmer but also a bit muffled in close comparison with the 37. Don't get me wrong, I really like my 5335 and it are details a random listener wouldn't notice. But hey, there is a reason for a 2k price difference...

There are trumpets like the Yam 8335 and B&S Challenger II that look almost like the 37. And are comparable with the 37 in specs. Especially the 8335 caught my eye because I like how Yamaha's play and they are (used) cheaper to find.

Would a 8335 or Challenger II be a upgrade soundwise in comparison with my 5335? Or is a Bach just in a leage of its own?


First, there is a significant difference between the 5335 and 6335 Yamahas, and then again between the 8335 and 9 series horns. A 6335 or an 8335 would offer you greater responsiveness and flexibility relative to the 5335 (which I cant really discern from a 4335). 5 to 6 is the Yamaha break-point between student and professional, and the difference is not to be found in mechanical drawings so much as in the fabrication processes which are more time-consuming and costly for Yamaha pro level horns, but yield a much more sophisticated product.

Is a Bach a better choice? That depends 100% on you. If a 180 provides the playing characteristics that make it easier for you to achieve your goals, then that's the right horn for you. But for others, it will do the opposite. Go try them.

As for B&S horns, it is probably well known that I have never been much of a fan - until recently. I still dislike the Challengers as poor imitations of a Bach in my book - but I will acknowledge that what I saw at the B&S road show this year were much better built than the Challengers I remember from years ago. (Wish I could say the same for horns stenciled Besson, but those were disappointing in the pricey cornets to just awful in the euphoniums that sounded lifeless and felt (and sounded - loose joints..) ready to fall apart)

The real surprise was the newer B&S trumpets (and the Courtois trombones where even the Chinese stencil was impressive for the price). The JBX trumpet was responsive, had better intonation characteristics than any Challenger, and filled the room. The MBX-3 "Heritage" trumpet was like something made by a different company. A huge full sound, still very responsive, spoke warm softly but could take a fair amount of power and then lit up. Both of these were built to exacting standards and completely changed my view of B&S as a maker. If you can, try them and see if they impress you as well.

(But forget the Challengers...)
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heinz wrote:
I saw this used 37 at Adams:
https://www.adams-music.com/trompet/tweedehands-trompet/gebruikte_bes_trompet_vincent_bach_ml37s_i5002243

Price is a bit steep for a clearly used 37?

Maybe it will polish up fine. And I don't like the movable triggerring. But I think they will make it fixed again if I ask.

It looks to me like it could be a lightly used horn - the tarnished silver would polish up easily and only really shows that it's spent some time outside its case. That finger ring is unfortunate though - depending on which way it was fitted in the holder, it would end up either too far from the valves or too close for anyone with hands anything like average size!

I don't have any knowledge of the Dutch market specifically but, if you play tested the horn and really liked it, and they offered to change the ring back to normal at no extra cost, I think it would be a good enough deal.

Mike
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heinz wrote:
I saw this used 37 at Adams:
https://www.adams-music.com/trompet/tweedehands-trompet/gebruikte_bes_trompet_vincent_bach_ml37s_i5002243.


Stay away from this horn, this is really a no go: it is twice the price they should asked. This makes me really sad.

If you are patience you will find a good deal on marktplaats.nl. If you are in a hurry I have a very interesting Antoine Courtois L bore Balanced for sale

She doesn't cost you an eye ànd sounds and plays like a better Bach 180/37

If you are interested send me a PM okee
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

First, there is a significant difference between the 5335 and 6335 Yamahas, and then again between the 8335 and 9 series horns. A 6335 or an 8335 would offer you greater responsiveness and flexibility relative to the 5335 (which I cant really discern from a 4335). 5 to 6 is the Yamaha break-point between student and professional, and the difference is not to be found in mechanical drawings so much as in the fabrication processes which are more time-consuming and costly for Yamaha pro level horns, but yield a much more sophisticated product.

Is a Bach a better choice? That depends 100% on you. If a 180 provides the playing characteristics that make it easier for you to achieve your goals, then that's the right horn for you. But for others, it will do the opposite. Go try them.

As for B&S horns, it is probably well known that I have never been much of a fan - until recently. I still dislike the Challengers as poor imitations of a Bach in my book - but I will acknowledge that what I saw at the B&S road show this year were much better built than the Challengers I remember from years ago. (Wish I could say the same for horns stenciled Besson, but those were disappointing in the pricey cornets to just awful in the euphoniums that sounded lifeless and felt (and sounded - loose joints..) ready to fall apart)

The real surprise was the newer B&S trumpets (and the Courtois trombones where even the Chinese stencil was impressive for the price). The JBX trumpet was responsive, had better intonation characteristics than any Challenger, and filled the room. The MBX-3 "Heritage" trumpet was like something made by a different company. A huge full sound, still very responsive, spoke warm softly but could take a fair amount of power and then lit up. Both of these were built to exacting standards and completely changed my view of B&S as a maker. If you can, try them and see if they impress you as well.

(But forget the Challengers...)


Thanks for your post.

I think the 5335 (like the GII I have) is a significant upgrade over the 4335. Hence it has the body of a 6335 with a 2-piece bell. It blows more open and has a warmer, more resonant sound than the 4335. The 4 is somewhat more tight and shrill. I think the 5335 is a really great trumpet and I wonder if the more high end options from Yamaha have much more to offer. But I like to try them to find out for sure. Same goes for the Bach.

Mike Prestage wrote:
Heinz wrote:
I saw this used 37 at Adams:
https://www.adams-music.com/trompet/tweedehands-trompet/gebruikte_bes_trompet_vincent_bach_ml37s_i5002243

Price is a bit steep for a clearly used 37?

Maybe it will polish up fine. And I don't like the movable triggerring. But I think they will make it fixed again if I ask.

It looks to me like it could be a lightly used horn - the tarnished silver would polish up easily and only really shows that it's spent some time outside its case. That finger ring is unfortunate though - depending on which way it was fitted in the holder, it would end up either too far from the valves or too close for anyone with hands anything like average size!

I don't have any knowledge of the Dutch market specifically but, if you play tested the horn and really liked it, and they offered to change the ring back to normal at no extra cost, I think it would be a good enough deal.

Mike


Bachs are expensive in Holland. I like to buy at a music store because of the warranty. But it is hard to find a good one at a reasonable price.

Manuel de los Campos wrote:
Heinz wrote:
I saw this used 37 at Adams:
https://www.adams-music.com/trompet/tweedehands-trompet/gebruikte_bes_trompet_vincent_bach_ml37s_i5002243.


Stay away from this horn, this is really a no go: it is twice the price they should asked. This makes me really sad.

If you are patience you will find a good deal on marktplaats.nl. If you are in a hurry I have a very interesting Antoine Courtois L bore Balanced for sale

She doesn't cost you an eye ànd sounds and plays like a better Bach 180/37

If you are interested send me a PM okee


Van Laar had a nicer and cheaper used 37, but it sold like hot cake! It seems like Bach is overly expensive nowadays. You can hardly find one <€1k! I also think this one is expensive. But if it plays really good...
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Heinz
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I have to take the Getzen Proteus 907 in consideration also:
https://deblaasinstrumentenspecialist.nl/getzen-eterna-907-s-trompet

I have no doubt it will play very well, but will it be as resonant and full sounding as a Bach?
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d agree with Ron on the X Series B&S horns. I have yet to encounter one I didn’t like. Personally I’d lean towards the MBX-2 but they are all top notch. Although I have been a Bach player for 30 years and the Challengers are the Bach clones/copies/whatever you call them, the X instruments are the B&Ss to look at. Goes for their FBX flugel as well. Best flugel I played in decades, much better for me than some custom horns.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
. . . Goes for their FBX flugel as well. Best flugel I played in decades, much better for me than some custom horns.

In their flugel line, the B&S Challenger II Bronchon and Elaboration are also excellent. I was lucky enough to snag a used Bronchon in like-new condition, and it's probably the best flugelhorn I own (along with my Kanstul-made French Besson Laureate and a custom "pocket" flugel made by Robb Stewart using Kanstul 1025 parts).

I've tried to sample an FBX, but authorized B&S dealers in the States won't order one unless you are already committed to buy it. I guess I'll have to go to a trade show sometime.

Heinz wrote:
Maybe I have to take the Getzen Proteus 907 in consideration also:
https://deblaasinstrumentenspecialist.nl/getzen-eterna-907-s-trompet

I have no doubt it will play very well, but will it be as resonant and full sounding as a Bach?

I tried a Proteus 907 at a dealer a while back, and really liked it. It was the first Getzen trumpet in the Eterna line that didn't sound too bright to me. It's like a commercial trumpet 'dialed back' several notches from a pure commercial sound. You should also take a look at the Getzen Eterna Deluxe line (900DLX and 907DLX). They are also very nice (and versatile).

The Getzen Custom Series trumpets are supposed to be the ones comparable to Bach. I tried a Custom Series 3050 once, but didn't like it much. It seemed too stuffy to me (but then I've always felt the same way about Bach trumpets with the 37 bell).
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe I have to take the Getzen Proteus 907 in consideration


The 907DLX is a terrific horn. It is Getzen's best all-purpose trumpet, in my opinion. It is slightly brighter and more focused than the Bach 18037, and has those fantastic Getzen valves.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
Maybe I have to take the Getzen Proteus 907 in consideration


The 907DLX is a terrific horn. It is Getzen's best all-purpose trumpet, in my opinion. It is slightly brighter and more focused than the Bach 18037, and has those fantastic Getzen valves.


Right!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Dayton wrote:
Quote:
Maybe I have to take the Getzen Proteus 907 in consideration


The 907DLX is a terrific horn. It is Getzen's best all-purpose trumpet, in my opinion. It is slightly brighter and more focused than the Bach 18037, and has those fantastic Getzen valves.


Right!


907s Proteus and 907DLX Eterna Deluxe are NOT the same horn.

The Proteus is more inline with the OP's indicated tastes.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
907s Proteus and 907DLX Eterna Deluxe are NOT the same horn.

The Proteus is more inline with the OP's indicated tastes.


Right. Definitely not the same horn. As for which Getzen is more in line with the OP's indicated tastes, perhaps that is open to some interpretation. If the OP is looking specifically for horns with a 37-style bell flare, then I agree that the regular 907 is a good starting point (perhaps along with the 3050, which has never quite clicked with me, or the wonderful, hard-to-find 3001 Artist model).

But if the OP is looking for an excellent all-around horn, particularly one with a brilliant sound, -- and isn't as particular about bell flare -- I'd suggest the best starting point in the Getzen line up might be the 907DLX.
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